Bring back the power of moons

    • Maybe
    • Fleet, Defense and Combats

    • Bring back the power of moons

      One of the reasons people play vmode (i.e., being in v mode and only playing for a few hours, and then back to v mode) is because in faster universes it's impossible to survive if you are not part of the monopoly, who owns the universe. And high speed universes favor the creation of those monopolies, people who play with much more energy tend to own the universe in less than a year, and after that, it's just them growing, and the rest of fleeters (or at least who want to be fleeters) need to play vmode.

      It's not always like that, but enough to generalize, almost any fast universe suffers from this.

      As always, there's some debate and some ideas, but here's another one, that would involve almost no change in the game, and would change a lot the playability.

      The idea is simple, the main reason fleeters can't play against bigger forces (that in x1 speed universes can be done, but not in high speed) is the fact that moons are made out of paper. You can go to sleep one day, and wake up with 14 moons poped. Which stops any kind of intention to play.

      With just this little change, that could change: just make moon destruction to be slower (e.g., that they take the same time than in x1 universe).

      I don't mean to reduce the speed of deathstars, just that when someone selects the Moon destruction the speed would be adjusted accordingly. So only that would change, still one could farm or attack with deathstars easily, with no change of speed, and the rest would be the same.

      This small change would have big consequences, one of them the fact that moons would be safe again (as they were in x1 universes) and that way, even in fast universes, people would have much more incentive to play fleeter and have bigger fleets. And universes wouldn't die that fast. And monopolies would be much more problematic to own the universe.

      Please, give it a thought, and comment if you have any idea :)

      Source of this idea: this has been on my mind for some time, but after seeing the latest changes (or possible future changes) to the game, like 48h forced vacation mode and reduced deuterium consumption, which is just an incentive for players to play continuously, I felt like this was the missing leg, which is not only to welcome them on the active side, but also to bring back the protection that moons once gave, which might ensure more activity.

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Minion ().

    • So:

      Select moon destruction, the speed of the deathstar is e.g. 50% slower?

      Hmm If it really solve the problem, why not? But I think it needs some discssion here :)

      LG
      Being a QA is sort of like being a goal keeper. People only talk about you when you’ve screwed up. We are the silent guardians of game development, and they will never have to thank us.

    • Of course debate is needed, or at least pouring a lot of thought into it, but I think the idea is good.

      Personally, I thought of it being more of a constant. And, since x2 universes still are impossible to play, if you are in the losing side, I thought of x1 speed.

      I mean, if the universe is x5, the moon destruction would be 5 times slower than a normal attack with deathstars. That way in every universe the moon destruction would be of the same time (3h same system, 7h one system away, more or less).

      My reasoning is that x2 speed is just too much even to survive, but may be those times I thought are too slow, that's true.

      In any case, whatever the time, I think that, except for x1 universes which could be untouched, higher speed universes could have a constant time of moon destruction. I mean, even if it's 50% slower, in an x2 that's good, but in an x5 it's still a (big) problem and will not give enough power to moons.

      That being said, may be the just the 50% speed is more than enough. Not only the mission spends more time flying, but there wouldn't be that much of abuse because if you are caught in the middle, you have to calculate comeback times for much longer.

      Thanks for the feedback ;)

    • NoMoreAngel, you mean like Deathstars go in Destruction mode, have the battle, and, once the battle is won, there's like two extra hours charging the proper destruction?
      That's more change, which I think it's a downside, adding “complexity”. But may be interesting.
      What would happen if someone logs in or defends the moon while the destruction is charging?

    • Yep thats the idea.
      I would say that they can't do anything about it as soon as they are charging. As a 3rd player who wants to defend you would get a warning that it is possible that you loose your fleet within the x minutes because there are deathstars pointed at the moon. Same would go for the player who owns the moon. Everything that lands on the moon between the battle and the possible destruction will get destroyed with it then.
      Obviously this mark that the Moon is about to get destroyed would be need to made in such a way, that you don't know who is destroying the moon, so that retimes would be too easy.

      Origin Admin
      OGame-Tech Chief

    • That would be a bit unfair, imagine loosing a huge fleet because of a deathstar that was pointing before to the moon.

      I think in that case, it would be better if the extra fleet that arrived during the “charging” would automatically escape (own ships directly to the planed in some sort of cancelled deploy —similar to relocations— and stranger ships just cancel the defense and start returning to their planets).

      This would be a major change :) It would open a nice pack of new strategies.

      EDIT: Hmmm... apart from the freedom it gives to not connect every X minutes to see if they are trying to pop the moon, one of the points of slow speed and longer flight times is the fact that if you are caught you have a number of slots busy for some time. I think that's important because it would play a part in the “difficulty” of popping moons, and players wouldn't abuse it that much.

      With this system, how would that go? May be, like expeditions, once the deathstars start charging (the pilots abandon ship) and there's no possibility to recall?

    • Nice try, but I would refer to it and keep it as a 'try'.

      Supposedily it's the speed universe's job to be fast, in every aspect. When I start in a 4x universe, I want to have fast deathstars even for moon destructions.

      Why?
      Because the gameplay stays intense and interesting. It takes skill, time and sometimes it gets so fast you can barely keep up calculating retimes and time defends at the same time.

      Slow rips mean more security in a game where attacking a good player is nearly impossible or is extremely time consuming and costy...even in high speed universes.

      Moons are not made out of paper, however they are considerably easy to destroy in faster universes that is true, but I won't ever play a 1x fleet universe again, since blocking a DMS ( 8h+ flight with deathstar from next system ) basically makes you undownable as long as you safe ( no matter how u safe ). Keep it fast! Saving takes skill and OGame stays interesting because there is actually a skill gap! Easening the gameplay for defenders will only affect those who were trying to play actively.


      Since many will say: Attacking is easy...it is not!

      Imagine this: I have a 6kk points fleet and there is a guy with a 200kk fleet who wants to down me. Seems bad doesnt it? No worries :). He also knows I have huge deuterium transport fleets to stay mobile and he is after them too, so he asks some ally mates to help him with a full rip...they are not joking!

      I have 12 moons, it s a 4x speed universe. Luckily I have an alliance in my safe system...disadvantage: he will know where my main will be.

      I go to sleep at 10 pm and wake up at 7 am to all of my moons destroyed...however, none of my fleets will ever be retimed.

      Why?
      Because I saved using deployment between all of my moons, sometimes over a galaxy and i simply recalled before I went to sleep.

      In average it will take me 5 moon shots per moon, which costs me about 8kk MSE per shot. Approximately 480kk MSE ( probably less ) for all of my lost moons.

      How much did they loose?
      12x4 deathstar per moon were sent. about 40% died.
      12x4x12x0.4 = 230 destroyed deathstars.
      this is about 2.300.000.000 ressources alone not calculating the MSE :D even if you take into account that probably not every wave had to actually attack the moon, the attacker has spent more time, ressources and risked falling asleep over the night.

      I on the other hand didnt do anything, and only really need a moon in my DMS so I can save every deuterium transport fleet and my main via deployment on that new moon.

      This game should not be about making it harder to attack but more about self improvement...How can I make it so that high speeds will not affect my saving in a bad way?
      How can I predict a move?
      How do I save safely?

      It's sad to see that players do not try improving themselves and rather search the fault in the gameplay itself. Blaming someone else is always easy and will not increase your knowledge about the gameplay.


      If moon destruction is too easy I recommend slow universes, blocked safe systems and a moon defense of about 10k rocket launchers ( just to be annoying ). Apart from that I can only assure you that an enemy who knows that you are saving well probably wont be attacking you at all, they will wait for you to be reckless and leave your fleet unattended ( so much cheaper, easier and less time consuming ).

      Sincerely,
      Lord

    • I will stop answering, I don't want to cope the thread with my replies.

      Lord_, what I propose is a change, this is precisely the suggestion, a change: if I enter an x4 universe, the moon destruction would have speed x2 (for instance). Yes, it's a change, and yes, until now if you entered an x4 the moon destructions would be x4 as always. But the change has its consequences. The idea is to debate the consequences, and if they may bring something good, even when they change the game.

      Take any fast universe of any community, look into the ranking and see how many players of the top ten who do not belong to the monopoly are in vacation mode. It's a high portion of them. The idea is to reduce the amount of players that play vmode, to add life to the universe. And not only that, but also many players that would otherwise have fleet and right now don't have them because it's not affordable, could start having fleets.

      Your example is not exemplary, per se. Having 6M of fleet to move is easy. What's not easy is to move 100M of an account in fleet. Imagine a fast universe 50% debris. You have your account of 100M fleet.
      The monopoly can destroy all of your 14 moons (and not only can, but they do any time they can). And the attackers definitely have a wide range of options to get profit from you even if they spend tons and tons of deathstars.

      Do you prefer to live without phalanxes, and jumpgates, having to rebuild constantly moons, having to live only to fleet and protect your fleeting (connecting at least ever 1h30min during the first part of the deployment), not having your fleet at home whenever you need it. Or do you prefer to stay in vmode, play for a few hours, and then go to sleep.

      Or for instance, a miner who has time for fleeting every now and then, but once you build a 50M fleet you just can't live with it when you don't have much time, so the option is to continue mining.

      That's a good thing about x1 universes, that if you are careful, you can survive with a big fleet, even when you don't use it much, or even when you plan to use it, you can be relaxed when fleeting from moons. Moons are a much secure place. And that's a good thing; this idea is just trying to bring some of that to fast universes, which, while more entertaining to the majority, lack of this “secure places” that would let you play without vmode.

      And even if I'm talking from experience, I think it's easy to check in other communities and that fast universes die in less than a year, and rarely the monopolies are brought down, those who reign the first months, reign until the next universe fusion.

      There are multiple things that add to that mixture that brings the death to universes, this is trying to point one of them, and may be try to solve it.

    • Your calculation has an error.
      In an 4x speed universe, you get 4x more resources in that example. Which means, you can build up Deathstars 4x faster then in 1x speed universes.

      For that fact you can 4x easier destroy moons and I still missed the speed.
      If you then get his main fleet, because the opponent is not a vmode safer, then it´s done for him, mostly.

      That moons die like flies in speed universes is not new. I recognice many complains over many years, so why not think of a change :)

      I also can think of a change of the moon destroy %. The formula for both values can be adjust depending on the speedfactor. Which makes it harder to burst a moon and you need more tries to do so.
      What about that idea?
      Being a QA is sort of like being a goal keeper. People only talk about you when you’ve screwed up. We are the silent guardians of game development, and they will never have to thank us.

    • JoKy wrote:

      I also can think of a change of the moon destroy %. The formula for both values can be adjust depending on the speedfactor. Which makes it harder to burst a moon and you need more tries to do so.
      What about that idea?

      That can be a good idea too, if moons are too easy to destroy then something can be added to the formula to make it harder :P

      There will be players who will like the idea and some will dislike it, but I hope more people will like it, destroying a moon will be more challenging :)
      Origin Supporter
      TM - OGame.dk
      Mail: erikfyr@ogame.dk

    • As I have stated above, I do not see why a fast universe needs to be slowed down, when everyone knows what he/she is signing up for. It works right now. The changes only make stuff harder which is already the hardest in the game ;-).

      Deployment recall saves are not easy to retime even in fast universes...making it even harder is just a cheap way of easening the game for less active players who have a loose save habbit.

      In other words: Slowing the moon destruction process will just move the 4x speed universe players to the 6 or 8x universes ;)

      Edit²: Good saving will >>hopefully<< stay the only way to >>really<< defend against moon destruction .___.

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Lord_ ().

    • NoMoreAngel wrote:

      Yep thats the idea.
      I would say that they can't do anything about it as soon as they are charging. As a 3rd player who wants to defend you would get a warning that it is possible that you loose your fleet within the x minutes because there are deathstars pointed at the moon. Same would go for the player who owns the moon. Everything that lands on the moon between the battle and the possible destruction will get destroyed with it then.
      Obviously this mark that the Moon is about to get destroyed would be need to made in such a way, that you don't know who is destroying the moon, so that retimes would be too easy.
      It would be important to be able to stop the deathstars even while they are charging, because if not, this would just add a few more minutes/hours to just cancel the fleet, and the power the moons would hold is still low

      JoKy wrote:

      I also can think of a change of the moon destroy %. The formula for both values can be adjust depending on the speedfactor. Which makes it harder to burst a moon and you need more tries to do so.
      What about that idea?
      That's interesting, but the timing (which I think is crucial) would not be affected. I have 28 fleet slots, and could still destroy a moon in less than 2h.
      In fact, that might just remove possibility from smaller players, while the powerful ones would still be able to launch at wish with no real problem (true, more deathstars down, but with big fleets that doesn't matter).

      I think the flight time is the important part, not only to keep a nice pacing for the players, but also to make popping moons an odyssey. If you know your deathstars are going to be flying around 4h one way (and 4h other way), you need to plan it thoroughly, and not just wake up and decide to bash in just 1h and a bit more a few moons.

      And just to clarify something that has come up in private: this is not a change thought to protect the newbies, its main objective is to let proficient players in the losing side of the universe play continuously and keep growing at decent speed, while maintaining some security, so they don't need to rely on v-mode. Which is, in a way, what moons did in x1 universes, but are not doing now in high speed universes (together with relocations, double clicking, etc. and more changes that have made destroying a moon a matter of minutes many times).

    • For the both parts of MD NMA and be created new formular, based to include the speedfacor.

      Do you have an sugguetion at the speedchange?

      LG
      Being a QA is sort of like being a goal keeper. People only talk about you when you’ve screwed up. We are the silent guardians of game development, and they will never have to thank us.

    • The suggestions to the speedchange depend on what “system” is chosen. Once the method is decided, it's a matter of building the equations. Here are three examples.

      Given currenttime = current flight time of death stars in a particular universe, and fleetspeed = the speed factor of the universe.

      In the case of my original suggestion (to have moon destructions have a constant flight time across every speed) an equation would be

      Source Code

      1. moon destruction flight time = currenttime * fleetspeed * constant1
      If we keep constant1 = 1, the time would be that of x1 universes. If that's too slow, we play with that constant to get a particular decided time value.


      In the case of JoKy suggestion (50% speed of the universe, or any other decided value) the equation could be

      Source Code

      1. moon destruction flight time = currenttime / 0.5
      The value of 0.5 could be discussed, for instance 0.6 if we wanted 60% of the speed.


      And here's yet another option that would make moon destruction flights faster in faster universes, but not linearly, so x4 speed doesn't take half the time of x2 speed, for instance. Here's the equation

      Source Code

      1. moon destruction flight time = currenttime * ( 1 + ln(fleetspeed) / 1.5 )

      Or more generally moon destruction flight time = currenttime * ( 1 + ln(constant1 * fleetspeed) * constant2 ), where ln is the natural logarithm. If my particular choice doesn't please, which I got by randomly playing with those constants, you can just play yourself with the values of the constants and look at the result. My particular example gives this results (simulating the flight time of destroying a moon from 1 system away, numbers rounded, with hyper15)

      x1 speed: currenttime = 7h, adjustment result = 7h
      x2 speed: currenttime = 3h30min, adjustment result = 5h
      x3 speed: currenttime = 2h20min, adjustment result = 4h
      x4 speed: currenttime = 1h45min, adjustment result = 3h20min
      x5 speed: currenttime = 1h20min, adjustment result = 2h50min

      I don't go further because fleetspeed is never above x5.

      This way, moon destruction are still faster in faster universes but they are decent, and make the universe more survivable.

      -----

      This doesn't exclude also changing the % of chance of moon destruction or the % of chance of loosing deathstars, and that might be also interesting.

      Personally, I find the suggestion about charging time a bit too complex (or with many open ends still).

    • Good evening,

      I'll weigh in on this one. Ogame is a war/strategy game. This is not some Animal Farm Utopia where everyone will get along. Always was and always will be. The best way to survive in your "monopoly" of big sharks is to learn how to save properly. Of course "Fleeters" will observe you and perhaps even try to MD (Moon Destroy) some of your moons, but if they don't see anything which is worth the effort flying for than thats a "goodjob" to you. :lol: Now let's assume the Monopoly does phalanx your fleet. There are still plenty of ways to make it annoyingly hard and probably not worth the effort for those players.

      Anyone building huge fleets before they are familiar with how you properly save should probably be crashed. Saving you could say is an art.

      Minion wrote:

      One of the reasons people play vmode (i.e., being in v mode and only playing for a few hours, and then back to v mode) is because in faster universes it's impossible to survive if you are not part of the monopoly, who owns the universe. And high speed universes favor the creation of those monopolies, people who play with much more energy tend to own the universe in less than a year, and after that, it's just them growing, and the rest of fleeters (or at least who want to be fleeters) need to play vmode.
      Some players need to go to VMode due to their Real Life commitments, not everyone has the same amount of time available to them. Do you really want to punish the players that invested so much of their time based on their strategic choices they made? How would you compensate the "Monopolistic Players"? They have spent a lot of time and resources building Deathstar fleets, because of what they are able to do. Would you buy a car now if the salesman tells you "But in one year it gets replaced with a donkey"?


      Minion wrote:

      The idea is simple, the main reason fleeters can't play against bigger forces (that in x1 speed universes can be done, but not in high speed) is the fact that moons are made out of paper. You can go to sleep one day, and wake up with 14 moons poped. Which stops any kind of intention to play.
      So there are a few problems right here.

      New players joining existing universes? Obviously you cannot "fleet" vs the bigger forces, because some players actually developed their accounts over several years.
      Players which started roughly around the same time as the bigger ones? Would that not as already described above only punish the bigger players for making smart strategic decisions?

      Every player makes an active decision, or at least should do, on the universe they join at the point "register". If you love your 10Hr beauty sleep, yet you want to be fleeting, then x5 or x4 speed universes are not the right choice for you. As for miners, I know plenty of them that get by in x4 speed universes just fine. Yes sometimes the occasional moon may go down, but they still follow through with their style of play according to how much time they want or can invest.

      Addressing your "Paper Moon" theory. I have seen plenty of moons which seem a lot harder to fall than the % might suggest.

      I have the feeling that this suggestion is to make an already easy life, if you actually care to inform yourself and learn, even easier. Please don't try to fleet if you only have an hour a day!

      ErikFyr wrote:

      It sounds like a good idea to make moons more safe, but I think it should only apply to speed universes because in 1x speed universes, they are slow enough :)

      As JoKy said, 50 % slower sounds like a good idea in speed universes :)
      If you actually build defense on the moons it's quite annoying to IPM them and rip them. This should never be implemented anywhere. No 1x nor 5x. :crazy: These changes would make the "smaller" players untouchable as you would see every attempt coming from a mile away.

      Guys, please play according to the time available to you and the circumstances of the universe. There are plenty of guides on how to properly save and what not to do.

      DON'T DUMB THE GAME DOWN FURTHER. :lol: (I like this smile)

    • Minion wrote:

      he idea is simple, the main reason fleeters can't play against bigger forces (that in x1 speed universes can be done, but not in high speed) is the fact that moons are made out of paper. You can go to sleep one day, and wake up with 14 moons poped. Which stops any kind of intention to play.

      The main reson why fleeters can't play against bigger forces is because they lack the necessary knowledge or what many players refer to as "skill". Losing several moons is part of the game...

      Attacking, even in fast universes, takes planning, time and a lot of invested ressources and to be honest...the ones with big accounts most of the times know what they are doing and that s the reason, why their accounts are at the top...

    • Sadly noone asked for the second part we had in mind yet, so I will just explain you a bit with what we came up so far:

      Forget this one, there is an error in it

      Source Code

      1. Flightspeed = Current Value * (Flightspeedfactor / 2)
      2. The dividing factor can't get smaller than 1, so 1x and 2x unis would have the same speed.


      Idea behind this: A lot of users complain, that they can't save orderly in high speeds without spending to much deut (leads to vmode save). Also they complain about getting their moons destroyed to quickly because of the high RIP-speed. So with this formula the RIP would get slower overall, so that you can save a longer time insys while you still can get ripped with a decent speed. (Exact formula still for discussion, but it will apply on the RIP-speed overall and not only for MD).

      Source Code

      1. Currently:
      2. Chance of MD (%) = (100-sqrt(Moonsize))*sqrt(RIP-count)
      3. Chance of RIP destruction (%) = sqrt(Moonsize)/2
      5. Idea:
      6. Chance of MD (%) = (100-sqrt(Moonsize))*(sqrt(RIP-count)/Ecospeedfactor)
      7. Chance of RIP destruction (%) = (sqrt(Moonsize)/2)/(Ecospeedfactor/2) --- (Not for 1x)
      Here is the idea, that because of the higher Ecospeed there are more RIPs in the Uni that could destroy your moon, so you need more RIPs to get the same effect as in 1x Uni. Because that would increase the amount of RIPs needed, we would also lower the chance of RIP destruction equally. Have in mind that those formulas are not the official ones, those are taken from Owiki, to give you an overview of what it could look like. :)

      Origin Admin
      OGame-Tech Chief

      The post was edited 5 times, last by NoMoreAngel ().