Positive honorable points proportional to the attack profits

    • Positive honorable points proportional to the attack profits

      Hi

      At the moment, what is an honorable player ?

      It's someone who attack the most profitable player he found (ie : often with non honorable combats), but then he has negative honorable point :cursing:
      But it's not a problem, because it's easy to earn positive honorable points : you juste have to find a nice (ph) turtles, and send your deathStar (or destroyer ...) against him.

      Then you are a nice emperor who attack weak targets, and who break defenses without any profits ... :beer:


      Then now, the honore ranking encorage you to destroye defense without any profits. And I don't think it's an honorable action.
      Moreover I don't think it's a good idea for the game : Because everybody can become a target only for ph, and there is no way to avoid it (exept not have defense ...)



      Then I suggest that the positive honore points can only be earned if there is an honorable combat (= honorable target AND profits)
      [profits = raided resource + debris field created - your loss]
      And the more profits you make, the more honorable points you earn.

      And if the profits is negative, you don't earn honore points.


      Or if you don't want to use the profit, you could at least only count the destroyed fleet, instead of destroyed (fleet+defense), it would avoid the free attacks against defense


      Thanks for comments :)


      ** OgameTech **

      The post was edited 1 time, last by vulca ().

    • Hi,

      I share your point of view about the current issue of honor point : you can get honor point just by sending your deathstars on massive bunkers, without any profit.
      A lot of players start to do it, in order to escape from the "bandit" ranking.

      Instead of talking of final profit, I would say that a combat shouldn't be honorable if the attacker is not victorious.
      It means, excluding the draw fights from the honorable possibilities.

      Or if you don't want to use the profit, you could at least only count the destroyed fleet, instead of destroyed (fleet+defense), it would avoid the free attacks against defense


      This solution could be good too. :)

    • Instead of talking of final profit, I would say that a combat shouldn't be honorable if the attacker is not victorious.
      It means, excluding the draw fights from the honorable possibilities.

      There is big honorable fight with fleet VS fleet which can end by a draw (and a big profits)
      And it won't avoid the free defense destroying to earn PH


      Quoted
      Or if you don't want to use the profit, you could at least only count the destroyed fleet, instead of destroyed (fleet+defense), it would avoid the free attacks against defense

      This solution could be good too. :)

      It will solve the bigest problem, then why not.
      But it will be harder to earn honore points. => could be a problem if negative one don't modify how to earn negative honore points too
      And i don't see why only destroye fleet is honorable ... ^^


      ** OgameTech **

    • There is big honorable fight with fleet VS fleet which can end by a draw (and a big profits)
      And it won't avoid the free defense destroying to earn PH


      Making the draw fights "neutral" would already avoid artificial climbing in the honor ranking, and I don't think it is really penalizing for the massive draw fleet vs fleet...
      It hardly happens from time to time... It would protect harmless players from being attacked by big rippers, which is not very honorable indeed...
      And these repetitive attacks are very likely to push the victims to abandon their accounts.
      But of course you are right in your second sentence, so I agree with the honor points linked to the profit (and/or fleet destruction)...
      The only counterpart of your proposal will be : much more difficult to get honor points... Why not ?

    • I agree with you both.

      I think It is necessary to change what exists in the current version.

      A remark please : why do you post here and not in the Suggestions Area there :
      board.origin.ogame.de/board15/
      which implies sometimes an official feedback.

      Your remarks concern all the players in all communities, don't they ?

      Le bonheur est souvent la seule chose qu'on puisse donner sans l'avoir,
      et c'est en le donnant qu'on l'acquiert ^ Voltaire.

    • Then you think it's honorable to send deathstars on all peaceful player just to have HP and then not being a bandit after destroying weeker players ? :huh:

      Before, if you know how to play, you don't get attacked.
      But know, there is only 3 solutions to no be attacked for HP :
      - Having a big fleet to defend you and many free time to play.
      - Having no defense (but you will be raided for resource earn during the night ^^)
      - Having a hudge defense with rip and that nobody can attack without loss ... (seems to be impossible to have that on each planet ^^)

      Then what can do all the turtle who just like mines and trade ?
      They can just suffer attacks before stoping the game ... :huh:


      The honore points was implented to avoid attacks against weaker players ? It cannot work because it's too easy to earn HP attacking the turtles.
      And it entails many attacks for nothing against player who cannot avoid it.

      You wanted to protect the weaker players, I realy thing that, currently, it does the opposite effect :(


      ** OgameTech **

    • vulca wrote:

      Then you think it's honorable to send deathstars on all peaceful player just to have HP and then not being a bandit after destroying weeker players ? :huh:
      and I add earning quite nothing at all as ressources ...
      And it entails many attacks for nothing against player who cannot avoid it.
      exactly !

      I agree with Vulca. In France we see this kind of drift due to the implementation of ph.
      Consequence : a lot of players attacked as Vulca tells us decide to stop Ogame

      I think and I hope this is not something wanted by the GF.

      (thanks for moving the sujet kebab ^^)

      Le bonheur est souvent la seule chose qu'on puisse donner sans l'avoir,
      et c'est en le donnant qu'on l'acquiert ^ Voltaire.

    • Whether the fight is honourable or not is determined by a military highscore list. Basically, this is a good idea. If Attacker and target have similar amount of military points, it means that the target has a good chance of defending himself against the attacker, no matter what the attacker sends.

      In normal circumstances, mass ripper shouldn't be able to get hps by attacking a miner, because of a big difference in military points. But there is a problem in old unis, which have ~100 active players. There are huge differences between two consecutive military highscores, and pretty much everybody is an honourable target.

      Btw, mass rip attacks are almost always profitable. Attacker's losses are usually zero and deut consumption is very low. So even a small amount of stolen resources will turn into a profit.
      Life? Don't talk to me about life...

    • Whether the fight is honourable or not is determined by a military highscore list. Basically, this is a good idea. If Attacker and target have similar amount of military points, it means that the target has a good chance of defending himself against the attacker, no matter what the attacker sends.

      In normal circumstances, mass ripper shouldn't be able to get hps by attacking a miner, because of a big difference in military points. But there is a problem in old unis, which have ~100 active players. There are huge differences between two consecutive military highscores, and pretty much everybody is an honourable target.

      You are wrong, because the defense are in the military points ;)
      Then the more defense you have, the biggest (rip) fleet can destroye you ...

      And whatever your fleet you will always find a minier with enough defense .. (until they all stoped OGame)


      Btw, mass rip attacks are almost always profitable. Attacker's losses are usually zero and deut consumption is very low. So even a small amount of stolen resources will turn into a profit.

      Before HP points, nobody send mass rip for breaking 200 solar satellites :pillepalle:


      ** OgameTech **

    • vulca wrote:

      Whether the fight is honourable or not is determined by a military highscore list. Basically, this is a good idea. If Attacker and target have similar amount of military points, it means that the target has a good chance of defending himself against the attacker, no matter what the attacker sends.

      In normal circumstances, mass ripper shouldn't be able to get hps by attacking a miner, because of a big difference in military points. But there is a problem in old unis, which have ~100 active players. There are huge differences between two consecutive military highscores, and pretty much everybody is an honourable target.

      You are wrong, because the defense are in the military points ;)


      I'm not wrong. I know the defence goes to military points. If I invest equal amount of resources in defence (and with time in few rips) on one planet that the ripper invested in his rips, he will lose the fight. Defence on my other planets will be so small that it won't be worth the time of sending the rips for just a few hps. Not to mention that every attack with rips carries a certain amout of risk, because they can easily be caught on their way back.


      Then the more defense you have, the biggest (rip) fleet can destroye you ...

      And whatever your fleet you will always find a minier with enough defense .. (until they all stoped OGame)


      No. In unis with "normal" number of players, miners won't be honourable targets to strong MP players. Turtles are another thing... ;)

      Edit:
      Few numbers from uni3.ba to emphasize my point:

      Highscore:

      1 miner 16.849.916
      3 ripper14.839.517
      16 turtle 9.625.878

      MP highscore:

      5 ripper 6.556.989
      8 turtle 5.804.682
      22 miner 2.064.148

      Miner is honourable to ripper because there are less than 100 active players in uni. If there were more players, difference on MP list would increase, and miner wouldn't be honurable to ripper even though he has more "regular" points than ripper.
      Turtle would be honourable to ripper even if the player count was "normal". Turtle has less regular and less military points than ripper. Turtle has 44 rips, ripper has 594.

      Result: | Defender wins (100%) | after ~ 5 rounds
      Debris Field: 895,972,500 Metal (30%), 716,454,900 Crystal (30%) max. 80864 Recycler
      Losses Attacker: 2,970,000,000 Metal, 2,376,000,000 Crystal and 594,000,000 Deuterium
      Losses Defender: 261,898,500 Metal, 224,925,500 Crystal and 59,465,500 Deuterium



      Btw, mass rip attacks are almost always profitable. Attacker's losses are usually zero and deut consumption is very low. So even a small amount of stolen resources will turn into a profit.

      Before HP points, nobody send mass rip for breaking 200 solar satellites :pillepalle:


      This isn't true. We have one mass ripper on uni3.ba that did exactly this, without honour points. He did it simply because he could. I guess now he will have an additional reason to do that, but the point remains that the mass rip vs defense problem existed before honour points. So changing the honour system won't solve it.
      Life? Don't talk to me about life...

    • You show us the to 10 players ... But it's not them who risk the more.
      It's all others.

      I speak about ripper because it's the worse. But in FACT many complain about attack against them just for HP (and not only with RIP), and they can do nothing to protect them, or to prevent them. So this is very disheartening.
      Then for medium & weak player it's a catastrophe :oops:

      And whatever your fleet you will always find a minier with enough defense ..

      That's true ... exept maybe at the top of the rank (but here, there is the 100 rank rule), because of the points difference.


      And I'm not talking about an old empty uni , but a real active uni with all kind of players ;)


      but the point remains that the mass rip vs defense problem existed before honour points.

      There is a way to avoid it. There is no way to avoid attack for HP


      ** OgameTech **

    • vulca wrote:

      You show us the to 10 players ... But it's not them who risk the more.
      It's all others.


      I gave that example beacuse it shows that no1 ranked miner won't be an honourable target to a strong MP player. It's logical that weaker miners will have even less MPs, and that their attacker will have to be really weak in MPs to earn honour points.


      ...
      And I'm not talking about an old empty uni , but a real active uni with all kind of players ;)
      ...
      There is no way to avoid attack for HP


      Please describe what type of uni and players are you talking about?
      I'm sorry, but this sound to me exactly the same like complaints we have on the forum all the time:
      "This guy attacked me! He is a lot stronger than me, and his profit is really small! Shame on him!"

      Then you take some time to explain to a "poor, molested" player what to do so he would be unprofitable. In most cases they don't even try to change their gameplay, but just continue complaining, and eventually quit playing.

      It's the same with honour points. If a player can attack his target and have no losses, he will do it.

      What do you mean "you can't avoid attack for HP"? If attacker has some losses, he won't attack you just for HP. If he does, he wont last for long.

      And only considerably stronger players or rippers can be sure that they will have no losses. Rippers we discussed and agreed that it's a problem older than the honour points system. And thanks to the honour points system, the number of stronger players which can attack you without consequences is now limited to 100+- players on the military points list.
      So, once again. This problem can only exist in unis that don't have enough players to make the honour system work.
      Example:
      No1 on MP list: 9.231.710 MPs
      No100 on MP list: 2 MPs

      Of course it's not honurable for a 9M MPs player to attack a 2 MPs player. Universe must have enough players for a HP system to work. Otherwise, some other kind of system should be used (for example 50% of MPs).
      Life? Don't talk to me about life...

    • I gave that example beacuse it shows that no1 ranked miner won't be an honourable target to a strong MP player. It's logical that weaker miners will have even less MPs, and that their attacker will have to be really weak in MPs to earn honour points.

      The top are the exeption ^^ you should look at the middle of the rank


      Please describe what type of uni and players are you talking about?
      I'm sorry, but this sound to me exactly the same like complaints we have on the forum all the time:
      "This guy attacked me! He is a lot stronger than me, and his profit is really small! Shame on him!"

      Then you take some time to explain to a "poor, molested" player what to do so he would be unprofitable. In most cases they don't even try to change their gameplay, but just continue complaining, and eventually quit playing.

      And how to be unprofitable for MP ? :P

      What do you mean "you can't avoid attack for HP"? If attacker has some losses, he won't attack you just for HP. If he does, he wont last for long.

      For example, I have 500k points in defense (~ 7000 rl, 2000 ll, 800 hl, 300 gauss, 80 pt )
      If I have no fleet, a fleeter with a 1M points fleet can be honorable on me.
      And he needs only 6 RIP (=60k points) to attack me everywhere without any loss

      So I say it again, every minier will find honorable fleeter with the fleet needed to crash them without loss.

      And it works for weak player too : before they have gauss, before they have plasma, before the have enough plasma to prevent from destroyer ...

      What can they do to avoid attack if they are without fleet and time to play ?
      There is way to avoid being profitable, but you cannot to be sure of making loss.

      The only way to be sure of making loss is having very big defense and defending RIP


      ** OgameTech **

    • In normal circumstances, mass ripper shouldn't be able to get hps by attacking a miner, because of a big difference in military points. But there is a problem in old unis, which have ~100 active players. There are huge differences between two consecutive military highscores, and pretty much everybody is an honourable target.


      I'm not wrong. I know the defence goes to military points. If I invest equal amount of resources in defence (and with time in few rips) on one planet that the ripper invested in his rips, he will lose the fight. Defence on my other planets will be so small that it won't be worth the time of sending the rips for just a few hps. Not to mention that every attack with rips carries a certain amout of risk, because they can easily be caught on their way back.


      Hello Marv, please forgive me for quoting your messages partially, I just want to concentrate on the core idea.
      I don't know in which community you play, this could impact our analysis too.

      At the moment, you can attack the 100 players behind you in the military ranking. For a ripper, it means : honor point wherever you hit in that list, without taking in consideration the "normal" profit you can get from a raid.
      You don't easily get caught on your way back with RIP, I talk from my own experience (several years without being in the strongest ally of my universe).
      So in my case, I will hit harmless players, unable to defend themselves properly (lots of them) with big bunkers, and no profit, just for HP.
      As the GF is planning to give some extra benefits for honorable players, I will definitely continue to hit big bunkers and kicking out some of those players from the game.

      That's why (note that it is not in MY interest), I think Vulca gets a good point to propose another way to attribute HP : if GF waits too long, the defensive players will be strongly penalyzed by the V3. I know that players need to adapt to the new rules, but it's far too late for many of them.

    • Hi. At first please be sure that we are still thinking about several solutions all around our given 'problems' with honour points. That's why every discussion is welcome to give some more input and maybe offering new thoughts.

      In general the idea to combine HP with 'win' is a really good one but for sure it won't be easy to balance such a system. If you want to take care of the loot (resources), the debris field and destroyed units (ships and possibly def) ... every of it maybe with different emphasis ... and maybe the value of all used resources as well ... this would be a really huge package.

      Any detailed suggestions about it?

      greetings
      WeTeHa
      - - - WTH was here - - -

      PD

      ogame has no bugs...only unbalanced features^^
      yeah my girlfriend too :P
      loool

    • Thanks for awsers :)


      I think that the solution have to come very quickly, because miniers are dying [as all starting player..^^].


      If you think that it would take to much time to use the attack profits, you can make, temporary, a very easy modification for the v3.1 which would solve the biggest problem :
      Replace it : [Bugfix] influence of defense onto amount of honour points partially broken
      by it : [Bugfix] No more influence of defense onto amount of honour points

      Really easy and fast to do ;) (replace a" *0.3" by a "*0" :P)
      Then it will stop the big issue of the V3, and give us the time to find and carry out a better solution. :)



      Then now about the real suggestion :

      What is an Emperor ? => Somebody who attack for profits, not just to destroye you ...

      There is many possibility :

      - Solution 1

      Source Code

      1. HP = MAX ( ((DF + loot - your loss)/10 000)^0.9 , 0)


      (+) The more profitable the attack is, the more HP you win => honorable player try to make to best profits.
      (-) The one who lose the fight will have no HP



      - Solution 2

      Source Code

      1. if(DF + loot - your loss) > 0 )
      2. HP =((DF + loot - your loss)/10 000)^0.9)
      3. else
      4. HP =((DF + loot - your loss)/100 000)^0.9)


      (+) The more profitable the attack is, the more HP you win => honorable player try to make to best profits.
      (+) The looser will have some HF
      (-) HP for the looser linked to his loss, and not to what he can destroye or raid



      - Solution 3

      Source Code

      1. HP = ((ship you have destroyed*0.3 + loot)/10 000)^0.9


      (+) Looser will have some HP
      (-) Don't take care about your loss
      (but if it's not profitable you won't earn many HP OR you will have many loss)


      I don't think it's usefull to use different value for different resource, it would complicated the thing for nothing. Using the 1M=1C=1D like for global points is fine.

      And about the non honorable attack, I think that the actual calcul is fine : The more you destroye, the more you are a "bad" player, the more you will be a bandit.


      So in fact there is many way to improve it, but please remember that currently, OGame players need a solution very quickly.
      Please show them that you aren't as narrow minded as most of them now think, and erase the effect of the broken defense onto HP in the V3.1



      Thanks :)


      ** OgameTech **