Scourge of the AI expansion! (3 ships+)

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    • Scourge of the AI expansion! (3 ships+)

      Would you be interested in this idea?(Either the 3 core ships(now 2) or with the alternative ideas mentioned.) 7
      1.  
        No (4) 57%
      2.  
        Yes (3) 43%
      board.us.ogame.gameforge.com/b…nsion-3-ships/#post530426

      From the US boards.

      This is as far as the idea is atm. I'm sure it needs lots of balancing to make it work and to be interesting.(Mind you the only things that are absolutely needed are the 3 core ships (SV,AI,AC). Although other parts could add a lot of character.)

      Version #2: Scourge of the AI expansion! (3 ships+)
      Version #3: Scourge of the AI expansion! (3 ships+)
      Version #4: Scourge of the AI expansion! (3 ships+)
      Version #5: Scourge of the AI expansion! (3 ships+)
      Version #6: Scourge of the AI expansion! (3 ships+) <- Click this!!!***Current and, hopefully, final version!

      So far:

      Post Redo:
      Key
      Display Spoiler

      ET= EnergyTech
      IT= IonTech
      CT= ComputerTech
      EPT= EspionageTech
      LT= LaserTech
      ST= ShieldTech
      HD= Hyperdrive
      CD= Combustiondrive
      ID= Impulsedrive
      GC= Gauss Cannon
      PC= Plasma Cannon
      Science Vessel: (SV)
      Display Spoiler

      Description:

      "State of the Art. It is the first ship designed primarily for exploration. The Science Vessel is fast, agile ,and made to deal with the rigors of deep space. It is good in almost any situation. It's main purpose is to take down the newly discovered AI's that have been found roaming through the void. Having been developed along side the Micro Burst Ion Laser(MBIL or MBL for short), this ships Ion cannons fire very rapidly. It cannot damage larger structures like the large shield dome, but it can do small damage to a large number of ships. Especially against the AI for which it was designed to kill. This ship is very versatile, but it can be taken down. So be careful how you use it!

      This ship is fitted with a special scanner allowing it to act like an espionage probe in regard to expeditions.(may or may not exist)

      RF formula: (SV Metal + Crystal/Shipx Metal + Crystal)*(1*Shipx Base Shield Value)/50 rounded up at .3"


      Cost:
      Metal: 30k; Crystal: 20k; Duet: 30k (Previously or alternatively 20K/30K/30K)
      Structure: 50k
      Hull: 5k
      Shield: 300
      Attack: 50
      RF:
      From:
      • DS: 10
      • SV: 6

      Against:
      • LF: 3
      • HF: 3
      • CR: 2
      • BS: 4
      • BC: 6
      • BO: 7
      • DE: 5
      • DS: 6
      • SC: 3
      • LC: 2
      • CS: 4
      • EP: 5
      • SS: 5
      • AI: 50
      • AC: 10
      • SV: 6
      • GC: 6
      • PC: 3
      • Total: 120
      • First and only ship(besides DS) to have RF against GC or PC but with so little it doesn't matter!(unless combined with other ships!)

      Fuel: 300
      Speed: 10,000(I)
      Cargo: 1,000?

      Prereqs: Shipyard: 6; EnergyTech: 6; Laser Technology: 7; Ion Technology: 5; EspionageTech:5?; Computer Technology: 6; Shield Technology: 5?; Astrophysics: 2

      *This could possibly generate espionage reports when in combat after combat and regen on planets defenses to give details on what is left on the planet. Only if it survives! Not certain if this is useful. It would be to save sending espionage probes between attacks and would require selecting a button when sending attacks. Could have a setting to have it on/off in settings by default in case some people would use it heavily.
      Automatons/ Living ship/ Artificial Intelligence Combat Vessel (AI)
      Display Spoiler

      Description:

      "Discovered while exploring the universes outer reaches. It has come to be known as the great scourge! After being found in the voids of space these ship attack and destroy nearly everything they come across. After several decades, these “living ships,” began understanding where the vessels they attacked were coming from and started to gradually move towards civilized space. As they began to pop up outside of populated planets fear and panic spread rapidly until it encompassed the entire universe. After decades of military and infrastructure losses the empires finally decided enough was enough and sent out people to try to capture these ships for study. Many lives were lost and a few brave, or lucky, souls managed to capture some of these ships for study. With this the research began that eventually led to the creation of the Automaton.

      Because of it's AI this ship adapts very quickly to enemy tactics and is very difficult to hit. This makes the AI a fantastic front line vessel. And although seemingly weak on their own in large numbers are one of the most powerful weapons in your fleet! Despite it's benefits, because of rumors about how these ship were created, a persistent fear exists that these ships may one day develop minds of their own!

      **At Level 9 Combustion Drive is upgraded and the cargo is increased by 1 because of space saved by a new more efficient engine!"

      Cost:
      Metal: 600; Crystal: 400; Duet: 0 or 50(What min/cry ratio should exist on these 750/250/x; 600/400/x; 500/500/x, etc, or reverse(400/600/x etc)? And should it have a duet cost?)
      Structure: 1,000
      Hull: 100
      Shield: 50(*2W(100?!))(25-50base shields)(wild=50-100shields. if AI is base 25 wild variant is viable again potentially.)
      Attack: 10(*2W(20?!))


      *(Max number of AI in an AC times AI deut should always equal 5k duet! or AI cost no deut and carrier cost 15k deut.)?
      **W = Wild variant. It is the NPC natural version found in space. It will attack planets and be in expeditions.(*2 means 2 times the previous value!) (uncertain if this will exist)(outdated with redo! Must be reworked potentially to be usable. Probably won't exist unless in some other form as a monster in expeditions or as a rarer part of planet/node attacks. Regular AI can replace them in planet attacks if this feature exists.)

      RF:
      From:(Possibly represents some sized MBL system being installed to fight AI, possibly @ ET:3;IT:3;CT:3 or other tech levels depending on ship)
      • CR: 1 (upgrade to 2, or start at 2, or 1! )?
      • BC: 1 (upgrade to 2, or start at 2, or 1! )?
      • DE: 1 (upgrade to 2, or start at 2, or 1! )?
      • AC: 10
      • DS: 600
      • SV: 50
      • Note: if possible RF against should add up to no more than 666!
      • For pre-existing ships it may be needed to ignore RF against AI
        to when considering balance. This could be excused more easily if they
        are added as upgrades and not initially on any pre-existing ships except possibly the DS.
      Against:
      • EP 5
      • SS 5


      *AI(w) Should share these RF values. It's only stat difference should be the double shield/attack.

      Speed: 5,000(C);7,500(C)@CD:9
      Cargo: 6 (8@CD:9)
      Fuel: 10

      Prereqs: Shipyard: 2; LaserTech: 3; ComputerTech: 2; Combustion Drive: 2
      One way to work all this into the game is to have these(AI) drop from expeditions at about the same or higher rate then Espionage probes. then if you use them you can ignore them from profit margins when using them in raids etc. This could allow the game to loosen up a bit and give a little more room for raiders while making them feasible cost wise as fodder. Then even if no other special/optional aspect of the expansion exists they will be available and usable in a cost effective manner.
      ACV/AICV Carrier (AC)
      Display Spoiler

      Description:

      "After endless complaining from capitol ship captains about getting enough fighters to the front lines, an ambitious group of engineers set out to developed the carrier! It's purpose is to hold the newly developed unmanned Artificial Intelligence Combat Vessel(AICV). This hardy Fast ship can carry AICVs at the speed of soun.. ligh... Hyperspace at a much greater efficiency than they can travel alone! This ship has massive inside structures that can hold these AI and has specialized equipment that can deploy them nearly instantaneously. This ship will likely be escorting, and combating, the most powerful vessels in the known universe! With the implementation of carriers, capitol fleets have never been happier!

      Because of Space concerns regarding the AI it must carry this ship was only fitted with a miniaturized MBL system"


      Cost:
      Metal: 40K; Crystal: 10K; Deuterium: 15K or 10K(Can be changed to balance against AI cost)(Still uncertain what Min/Cry ratio should exist for an entire Carrier gorup(AC+AI(100)).Edit: Because of the cost of LF+HF combos I believe a Carrier group should likely have a min/cry ratio of 2! See charts below.)
      Structure: 50k
      Hull: 5k
      Shield: 500?
      Attack: 50

      RF:
      From:
      • DS: 6
      • SV: 10

      Against:
      • EP: 5
      • SS: 5
      • AI: 10

        Fuel: 500
        Speed: 5,000(H)
        Cargo: 10,000(adjust to fit max number of AI.)

        Prereqs: Shipyard: 8; EnergyTechnology: 8; LaserTechnology: 9; Ion Technology: 7; HyperspaceTechnology: 5; ComputerTech: 8; HyperspaceDrive: 4?

        *Can hold AI equal to the AI's Hull value. 100 max(50, 75, 100, or 125, 150, etc? uncertain of needed attack value for carrier group). I'm pretending structure is like volume and hull is like circumference or the outer shells actual size and shape.

        These ships cannot hold anything but AI vehicles(At hull value) and resources.

        *If number of AI held is changed so can the overall cost of the AC and It's Mineral/Crystal ratio to various values. Still uncertain of what those should be. This can also change the RF against AC from the SV.
      The MBL system represents a system of lasers with appropriate design to fire quick bursts and computer systems specifically to track AI. the premise is that they are so advanced AI wise(from being built from the Wild AI's) that normal computers cannot manage to keep up with them. so you get systems like the SV that have full abilities to attack them. And lesser ones like the AC that can only partially do it. The AC had to sacrifice a full install in order to fit AI. And having those AI it could also afford a little to skip the offense as the swarm of carriers it holds can act as defense for other ships to deal with them. The other ships either have a small portion of the MBL system so that they gain a their 2 RF or modified their current systems in another way to keep up. You will notice the only other ships with 2 either are already RF heavy or are very large. You can kind of think of the 2 RF like Half of the 5 RF normal for EP and SS but halved. This is because of the AI's ability to avoid fire and adapt. The CR/BC/DE either have to upgrade at some point to that or have it because their systems can keep up a little already. Upgrade requirements still haven't been thought up for them yet. When the AI were 500 structure I had the HF potentially upgradeing to 2 RF against AI at ET:3,IT:3,CT:3 to gain it's 2 RF as an early counter. But the change to 1,000 structure on the AI automatically gives the HF those same stats from the change in ratios without the upgrade. I'm still uncertain a little if 500 or 1,000 structure is better for the AI.

      Notes:(speculative/modifying/outdated)

      Display Spoiler
      1. RF formula: (SV Metal + Crystal/Shipx Metal + Crystal)*(1*Shipx Base Shield Value)/X (still balancing)rounded. (This is true except for EP and SS and maybe a few other circumstance!)
      2. ACV = Automaton combat vessel. AICV = Artificial Intelligence Combat Vessels
      3. SV has(had) RF on shield domes because I am assuming game mechanics don't let ships hit anything under the shields domes(ground defenses) in a ways that counts in stopping RF if the shields are up.
      4. This was inspired by games like X series and an earlier idea by someone else(I added my own version and developed this eventually!) about Science Vessels! Along with several other ideas I've had over the years for the game that eventually came together into this expansion concept!
      5. The addition of these 3 ships may spice up the game! And add more advantages for intelligent resourceful players.
      6. Obviously ACVs/AIs in the carrier should not use deut for travel. Only the carrier! The speed should also be replaced unless. This would be for all AI that can fit or are designated to fit in the carriers. There should or could be options or ways to have ones that do not and can escort at their regular speed and fuel cost if desired.
      7. None of these ships can be found for free in expeditions! They are duet and resource sinks!(This may be reconsidered to some extent as they have changed sufficiently.)(AI may be appropriate to find in expeditions. And in fact in inflated numbers potentially.)
      8. This expansion should make the game revolve a more around combined fleets(AKA more types working together!). As opposed to single or fewer ship types. Although that would be entirely circumstantial. This adds to the games options strategically.
      9. Fleets with carriers that loose their transport can simply fly back to your home. Making the whole remaining fleet go slow as well! This could be interesting for crashers if it is from a planet they can scan! It's a potential penalty when using carriers.
      10. Alternative: Any AI at end of combat without a carrier to get in(simple calculation (#AC*MaxAI) or enough deut to return could automatically turn into debri at any given location(except personal planet/moon) wether that debri is recyclable or not. Or they could vanish and escape as if they gained minds of their own! Adding an interesting way to deal with this could be a nice touch if not a necessity.
      11. A Science Vessel Swarm shall be dubbed a "Nerd Herd!"
      12. AI should fill with resources while in the AC. Technically the AI shouldn't enter the AC, but should be calculated ahead of time to reduce the cargo of the AC for the mission! Just calculate the allotted amount of Ai(MaxAI/AC) per carrier before collecting resources for each round and then fill the ship with resources after the last calculation. Or calculate at the beginning of a mission and leave it as is as it can not get lower. But I assume it could calculate hull at the end of combat and readjust the AC's available cargo. The AI should also independently fill up their own cargo holds. There should be an artificial max of AI per carrier as stated in the carriers stats!
      13. The AC could possibly be filled up by a check box in the mission creation screen next to the fill bar when and after you have selected a number of carriers. It could be checked on by default to fill the carriers automatically(or the opposite and the checkbox means don't fill the carriers, with it off by defaultl) Filling the AC fills the cargo as stated above.When in the fleet/mission creation screen this is taken from your available AI on the given planet/moon. The value from the carriers automatically adds to the AIs box with the correct value if they are selected to be filled. If any other number was already entered in the AI box then it adds to the given value. if no other AI are available it fills the carriers with the already given value in the fill box for AI! If you then uncheck it should preserve the previous value so if you uncheck you do not have to manually retype the AIs box. If you have carriers fill box checked(or equivilant) a check is made before going to the next window to see how many AI have a carriers. This then removes their fuel needed from the formula. It also reduces avaiable cargo by the ammount of the AI's hull value for every AI that has a carrier as stated earlier!
      14. I'm assuming that the carriers can pull duet from the cargo of the AI it "carries" under current game mechanics.
      15. The base job of the AC and SV surrounds their escorts. AKA ships of the same speed. Although they do a lot more!
      16. I believe AI should now fire before LF in a battle.(uncertain)
      17. If AI's attacked in expositions, and the Wild variant of the ship existed, the wild variant would normally attack(unless a rare normal AI attack also existed) and Pirates could get escorts from normal AI, while aliens might have the more powerful wild variant. I don't have a specific enough idea on what combos could exist yet in expositions.(this may no longer be applicable or have to be adjusted to work.)
      18. There could be rare rewards for combat in expeditions like items that act like a beacon for AI(W) attacks or increase liklihood of attack on planets. But you can only get them by flying combat ships into expedition getting rare mob/boss monsters and winning. It could be very difficult to beat. There could be multiple types of fights you could run into that give different strength items. And maybe bosses/mobs, of verying power or so, designed from the AI concept to kill for those varying prizes.
      19. At minimum AI attacks(should they exist) should attack Expeditions,colonizing attempts, and arrivals to DF nodes! It could also have a potential wherever a single party goes somewhere alone. AKA any arrival of fleets to your own planets. Additionally it could also attack nodes with 2 or more different parties. But that would depend on if the game can do it and if it's desired. they can always attack after the party leaves merely from something having been there as all activity to and probably from a node should raise the odds of attacks in general.
      20. If the SV can get produce a combat report at the end of combat then a box will exist to turn on before sending it to say you want to get the extra report in the fleet screens somewhere. And possibly and option for default on or off of that box in the options.
      21. RF increase to DS could increase it's Deut cost to up to 2million.
      22. An increase in potential resources from AI being found in large amounts in expeditions or from planet crashes either leaving resources or making the planet vulnerable for raids could loosen up the game a bit and allow some more play to exist again. This would make smaller fleets better again and give room for more defense and other concept to enter the game again to compensate allowing further development.
      23. In a combat report Carriers with no AI in them could be shortened with AC. While Carriers with AI of any number could be labeled CA and not give the number of AI in them. This could be countered by something in regards to Espionage levels if desired for need to take down carrier groups returning.

      Additional aspects:(optional)

      Random attacks on planets from AI ships! New reason for early Small Shield Dome(SSD)!(besides early player attacks) Also generates random amounts of resources on nodes for players and miners alike!(Frequency and size(and/or other factors)must be balance for desired outcome. It can range tremendously. but also be changed easily for varied outcomes! (Also attacks could be sold like moon attacks potentially(or found by players). Maybe not direct attacks but possibly raised odds centered on a planet or solar system for a given time. Potentially some technology was developed to draw the swarm in with increased odds. Could be used to soften targets before IBM attacks or other offensive meneuvers. A more patient way to attack.. And possibly anonymous. NOt sure if you would need to espionage or if you get messages about attacks arriving..Since you did send the beacon it could have software to alert you. There could be counters to kill and end the probe early also... who knows.)

      ACVs(AIs) will be added as a monster role to expeditions. Can be individually as swarms or even possibly with pirates and maybe with aliens! And to a point that without a Science vessel have an increased chance of ripping your mining expedition fleets to shreds! Should give decent reason to change composition of all none DM farming Exp fleets. Needs to be figured out how much independently!

      Scourge of the AI Expansion! This is the idea for all 3 ships and accompanying ideas!

      Could be done on a special serve first! Like the intro of the new design. Scourge/AI servers! Could be a special RP server with a unique story and ships/rules. Like a single alternative universe or future path.

      Alternatively: You could also merely place an AI swarm item in expeditions and allow them to be found and then used on planets to bring random sized swarms against their planet(s) to soften them up for attacks. These could either be automatic attacks or ones where there is a detection system like with espionage and a potential for them to be shot down and the attack stopped or something different. This would get the same affect of oppening up the game for more attacks. Though having AI swarms randomly(with this item existing also) would be a better excuse to expand the defense side of the game again. It would mean there are more resources for less trouble and mean bigger raiders and hence more reason for defense plus weaken Defense in the game slowly automatically if players aren't keeping up with their planets.
      -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Extra comments:
      Display Spoiler

      **I think there could also be a check added when on a colonizing mission for AI to appear on arrival of the CS to the planet and arrival to DF nodes! They must survive the attack to colonize or mine or else they can be destroyed and a message in the mail given to note the combat and the failure of the mission etc.

      The number of vessels could be determined from anything like how the expedition does it with ship value, or from things like activity of or nearby planets combined with random odds of AI's arrival, or any combination thereof! (More activity increases the odds/numbers.)

      There could even be fluctuating odds of attacks or increase in certain areas that flash in screens with presumed Chance(from the players perspective) above a certain % for planets in those areas. And messages as your fleets arrive at destinations in such areas warning of increased likely hood of attacks. This could allow you to retreat if you think it risky.(if it allows check for attack on arrival of nodes) Espionage probes could help give a better accuaracy of threat or even ships like the SV. And a % Chance guess numbers could pop up giving assumed values of attack chances like 10%. But they would always be guesses. Possibly based on espionage tech value for accuracy or something.

      Even Fleet assaults and defenses could potentially be crashed by AI at any point. It could be used very well to add a lot more variation to the game! 8) The chances of attacks could also be modified by devs for special purposes and given logic to determine their occurrence over time(say population density gives a bonus to chances). Everything from size of fleet sitting to number of occupied planets could affect chances and anything and everything else appropriate could be used to determine attacks. Whatever fits the RP/feel it is intended to give to the players!

      The scourge should feel real. Solar systems could have bonuses chances based on number of total resources, or activity(ships arriving from attacks or transport) or ships in the SS.(could be any or none of these factors) This could increase the bonus in that SS and possibly surrounding SSs. There could also be periodic (hourly?/daily?) checks for attacks on planets Plus attack checks on specific events.

      If there is some variable detection system for of incoming attacks, one of the commanders could give a bonus to it's accuracy. I would probably go with the technocrat. +% of chance to detect swarm! Then you are more certain of when a swarm is really happening. Basically it would work with a simple percentage(on the server side based on actual data like volume of all player activity! Probably countered by espionage tech. This percentage would give a variable to how far outside of the actual chance you are. The server would have the actual numbers and you would a greater or lesser number based on your tech and circumstance per situation. You would never really know! When you perceive(with variable take into account!) your screen goes red like with a normal attack. It could be the same system different trigger! You would have to figure out what is going on. With lower espionage it might go off more easily and leave you more uncertain. With higher the inaccuracy will shrink and leave you with a higher chance of it being correct so you can react(build defense/fleet save to be safe....) There could be some other rules about time to attack etc. And possibly warning on time till attack but that could also be a variable like the attack. The system would have to be made to force intuitive actions and responses from players. This red system could go off at any node you are going too not just the one you are looking at. So red could flash in the fleet indicator screen around that specific fleet to see if you want to recall. The point is it would/could create uncertainties to create a more varied player actions. Another factor for people to determine if and how they attack/what they do in game could be a nice change.

      One way to introduce the expansion is to put the code in and let player actions introduce it. At first there would be nothing visible. Then expeditions would start to run into the Living ships and get funny combat messages and attacks. After that has happened so many times over the universe and if it happens in enough concentration and loss of resources the SV is developed and put into the players fleet/shipyard screen. After a while longer planets start to be attacked and more universe resources/destruction and ultimately a message is given out to players to send expeditions to catch one(these would be AI(w)). After that has been done so much by players the AI can be built and unlocked for the universe. And after players(or enough players) get to a certain tech level the AC could be introduced to players. It should add to the fleet/shipyard Interface and not just change from fuzzy to clear. Though more than just prereqs could be done per server for the AC though I'm uncertain what could be added to make it interesting. Maybe an initial message for the research(after a total universal tech/other req has been reached) and a single big universal pool for players to stick resources in, like how the import export screen works, and when the players have put(universe wide) to fill the resource quota value it is available or a timer is started and the researched finished after..(or better the timer starts when the resources start to be asked for and starts and stops based on if it has enough resources to use per amount of resources and messages go out for funds as needed! 8)

      If AI attacks on nodes is put in the game, it should be minimally set up so it can swarm instantly on situations on special node activities involving only single player activity (DF?/expedition/colonizing). All other node situations should at minimum increase the chance in the area of an attack randomly. This would/should include all departures and arrivals from and to nodes. So the planets sending fleets and the planets receiving those fleets both generate some level of increased risk to their locations. This ensures a potential greater problem for attackers over defenders making it certain endless small attacks cannot be used to destroy a target without risk. At least not without team work and some cleverness! ;) Size of fleets, and potentially resources being carried, should be a factor in the increase of that risk in both single party situations and multi party situations(travel/attack/special circumstances(DF/Exp/Colonizing)). Though special circumstance situtations could be restricticted from affecting the sending locations general chance of attack(or be so small it doesn't matter) and only affect the individuals chance of being swarmed on arrival to the node. Though this could be affected by the already existing chance to be swarmed. Swarms on arrival to expeditions could also be seperate from expedition outcomes.... This could make it more interesting as you could get multiple outcomes and more risk. AKA two chance to be killed. It could also be given chances for swarms on both the arrival and leaving of the individual nodes! 8) This could represent extreme risks as odds increase of attack from activity.

      The item for AI swarm increase could even be focused on a new 0 slot that represents the sun. This would increase in a different or lesser manner a threat to the whole SS compared to if it is only one planet or emanating from one planet.

      The concept of a rolling introduction could allow this to easily be introduced to any server at any time. It could also be done similarly to remove it. An event to find the source of the AI and have the entire server work and take it down could remove the random attacks. Or lesson them and just leave the ships it introduced. Or even remove them for lack of need.

      Also the concept of destroying the AI's source could be used likewise as a game feature. It could lesson attacks in a galaxy or quadrant etc for a time until the AI rebuild in deep space or where ever. Then different galaxies or areas could have unique chances of attack and reason to go there on and off.


      Data Charts:(speculative/modifying/outdated)

      Cost effectiveness of survivability vs DS: (Higher is better)
      Display Spoiler

      * Cannot Harm DS shields at full strength
      ** (9m/(ShipXMin+Cry))/RF
      1. PC: 90
      2. AC: 30*
      3. RL: 22.5*
      4. LL: 22.5*
      5. SV: 18*
      6. DE: 16.36
      7. AI: 15*
      8. IR: 12
      9. HL: 11.25*
      10. IC: 11.25*
      11. LF: 11.25*
      12. CR: 10.01*
      13. HF: 9*
      14. SC: 9*
      15. BC: 8.571428
      16. EP: 7.2*
      17. GC: 5.142857
      18. BS: 5
      19. BO: 4.8
      20. HR: 4.5
      21. SS: 3.6*
      22. LC: 3*
      23. RE: 2.25*
      24. CS: 1.2*
      25. DS: 1

      Survivability vs DS((9,000,000/ShipMin+Cry/RF)*ShipMin/Cry):
      Display Spoiler

      1. SSD: 450
      2. AC: 120
      3. PC: 90
      4. LSD: 90
      5. LL: 67.5
      6. DS: 60?
      7. LF: 33.75
      8. HL: 33.75
      9. CR:28.86002886...
      10. AI: 22.5
      11. RL: 22.5?
      12. AC+AI(100): 20
      13. DE: 19.63...
      14. BS: 15
      15. HF: 13.5
      16. SV: 11.999...
      17. BO: 9.6
      18. SC: 9
      19. EP: 7.2?
      20. GC: 6.851742...
      21. BC: 6.428571...
      22. RE: 3.75
      23. IC: 3.75
      24. SS: 3.6?
      25. LC: 3
      26. CS: 0.6

      Min+Cry per 6 rounds against DS:
      Display Spoiler


      1. PC: 600K
      2. AC@6: 1,800K
      3. RL: 2,400K
      4. LL: 2,400K
      5. SV@10: 3,000K
      6. DS: 3,300K
      7. AI@600: 3,600K
      8. IR: 4,500K
      9. LF: 4,800K
      10. HL: 4.800K
      11. IC: 4.800K
      12. CR: 5,346K
      13. AC+AI@10&600: 5,400K
      14. HF: 6,000K
      15. SC: 6,000K
      16. BC: 6,300K
      17. EP: 7,500K
      18. GC: 10,500K
      19. BS: 10,800K
      20. BO: 11,250K
      21. HR: 12,000K
      22. SS: 15,000K
      23. LC: 18,000K
      24. RE: 24,000K
      25. CS: 45,000K

      Kill rate per round against AI:
      Display Spoiler

      1. SV: 20
      2. AC+AI:14
      3. AI(100): 10
      4. AC:4
      5. CR@2: 2
      6. BC@2: 2
      7. DE@2: 2
      8. HF: 1
      9. BS: 1
      10. BO: 1
      11. DE: 1
      12. DS: 1
      13. RL: 1
      14. HL: 1
      15. IC: 1
      16. GC: 1
      17. PC: 1
      18. LL: 0.666...
      19. RL: 0.4098360656..?
      20. LF: 0.4?
      21. AI: 0.0993648598 (0.1)
      22. SV@1hit: 0.4
      K/R against AI compared to SV for 6 rounds((50k/shipMin+Cry)*KR*6) & *ShipMin/Cry:
      Display Spoiler

      1. SV: 120
      2. HL: 37.5
      3. IC: 37.5
      4. LF: 30
      5. HF: 30
      6. AI: 30 aprox.
      7. LL: 25
      8. AC: 24
      9. CR@2: 22.222...
      10. DS: 20
      11. AC+AI(100): 18 aprox.
      12. CR@1: 11.111...
      13. RL: 10.25..
      14. BC@2: 8.571428...
      15. GC: 8.571428...
      16. DE@2: 5.45...
      17. BS: 5
      18. BC@1: 4.285714...
      19. BO: 4
      20. PC: 3
      21. DE@1: 2.72...
      *ShipMin/Cry(Mineral/Crystal Ratio)

      1. HL: 112.5
      2. AC: 96
      3. LF: 90
      4. SV: 80
      5. LL: 75
      6. CR@2: 63.49206349
      7. HF: 45
      8. AI: 45 aprox.
      9. AC+AI(100): 36 aprox.
      10. CR@1: 31.74603175..
      11. RL: 10.25..*3? = 30.75
      12. DS: 25
      13. BS: 15
      14. IC: 12.5
      15. GC: 11.428571...
      16. BO: 8
      17. DE@2: 6.54...
      18. BC@2: 6.428571...
      19. DE@1: 3.72...
      20. BC@1: 3.2142855...
      21. PC: 3


      Carrier Group(AC+AI(100)) Min/Cry ratios:(a small amount of them)
      Display Spoiler

      • AI: 500/500 = 1 + AC: 25k/25k = 75k/75k = 1
      • AI: 500/500 = 1 + AC: 30k/20k = 80k/70k = 1.428571...
      • AI: 500/500 = 1 + AC: 40k/10k = 90k/60k = 1.5
      • AI: 600/400 = 1.5 + AC: 25k/25k = 85k/65k = 1.307692308
      • AI: 600/400 = 1.5 + AC: 30k/20k = 90k/60k = 1.5
      • AI: 600/400 = 1.5 + AC: 40k/10k = 100k/50k = 2
      • AI: 750/250 = 3 + AC: 25k/25k = 100k/50k = 2
      • More combos could be made up to get a desired ratio for the AC+AI(100). AKA Carrier group.
      Ship+Defense Min/Cry ratios:
      Display Spoiler
      • LF: 3
      • HF: 1.5
      • CR: 2.857142...
      • BS: 3
      • BC: 0.75
      • BO: 2
      • DE: 1.2
      • DS: 1.25
      • SC: 1
      • LC: 1
      • CS: 0.5
      • RE: 1.666...
      • EP: 0
      • SS: 0
      • RL: infinite
      • LL: 3
      • HL: 3
      • IC: .333...
      • GC: 1.333...
      • PC: 1
      • SSD: 1
      • LSD: 1
      • ABM: 4
      • IPM: 5

      Combat Notes:

      1. The AI is now an early escort for SC/LC/BO. This is an alternative to a carrier to get sufficient fuel/range. Albeit much less fuel efficient in large numbers.
      2. The AC is a likely escort for LF/DE/BO combos. it brings the AI with it.
      3. The SV is potentially a natural escort for HF/SC combos.
      4. An SV and HF can be guarded by SC just like and to near the affect of DE/BO and LF!
      5. I believe AI should fire before LF.
      6. AC and SV may also need to fire before LF.
      7. The HF should now have added benefit vs carriers or AI because of it's chance to 1 hit kill over LF(needed to aid LF against AI potentially.). This gives it more purpose again in game and helps re balance the entire circle of ship uses that already existed. Re giving all ships their original roles even more acutely than before.
      8. A Carrier Group(AC+AI(100)) cost 150k total mineral + crystals making it one of the most expensive ships in the game.
      9. A Carrier Group also has 1,050 total damage vs normal ships(more if AI are present because of RF).
      10. The DE, like other ships, is better at countering the Carrier the more carriers there are. The carrier seems to naturally get weaker against ships as you increase their numbers...
      11. The HF is now very powerful against AI and carriers defense/offense wise. It now has a good role compared to the LF. This should bring it's use back a little more and give BC and other ships back into normal use besides just against CR.
      12. The BS may or may not have a new role like the HF. It depends how it interacts in the new environment. It may be good against SV though, or mixed properly with other ships for added hits against capital ships, or mixed with BC against other ships in general. (I take that back. It has it's original role. A much more, cost effective, anti HF/fodder over the BC and DE. And now HF are a little more useful per say.)
      13. The BC may be a good natural counter to the SV. The SV is also a good counter to itself. If not alone with other ships. This is also true of the SV against the Carrier. It is the Key that opens the lock to make some other ships more effective against it in a battle. The cruiser being a potential example of this.
      14. AI also give new use for HL and IC as well as being good at killing GC and PC proportionally to cost.
      15. The AI is also a good escort for the DS.
      ***Reanalysing values of ships from a standpoint of 3xcrystal/1x mineral where as previously I was using 2x crystal/ 1xmineral. This should help figure out a few aspects of the design more correctly.

      The post was edited 1,034 times, last by Articulon: Readjusting values! ().

    • could you break this down into three seperate threads so other board users are not blinded buy the wall of text.
      and so each part can be read in full with out thinking on the other parts
      and is the ai ship suppose to do things on its own with out input from the player? if yes then a big no

      SV has been suggested before on .org boards. so has a carrier type ship.

    • The AI is just a normal player ship. But it could possibly be set up for them to swarm your planets/expoditions(not from your reserves just randomly generated from space because of player activity via the description for AI and comments). Yours will not attack you. I just put in the part about them gaining minds of their own as back story. And, potentially, as a way to get rid of stranded AIs.

      Unfortunately i don't think I can make 3 different ship suggestions as they go together. It don't think it will make enough sense without them being together.

      Edit: Besides prereqs, cargo, and possibly fuel I believe this is balanced now!(<-I take that back! 8p) If not a lot closer than before... I still have to run a bunch of comparisons but it looks good from what I have tested so far! Crossing my fingers! Cost comparisons for various battles are definitely needed compared to the current game though. There is a lot more potential loss compared to current battles because of the abundance of small ships(Though I'm uncertain how true this is. It may actually be less!). Still testing!

      The post was edited 20 times, last by Articulon ().

    • I do like the idea, the only concern I ever have is balance in sims. I think the ship ideas make sense in full or in part as the ships have realistic roles.

      So +1 from me hopefully some talented engineers and folks with sim calculators can shake a new ship into our game one day soon :)

    • REDO!!! Go do below spoiler for redo of AI ship!!!
      Display Spoiler
      More Optoinal Ideas: (things that could be needed to balance out the game or are potentially highly useful with the changes in the first post. AKA might make room for in the game as general concepts at minimum. This could be due to possible smaller margins in profit that are gainable for fleeters with increased fodder efficiency or other natural consequences of the expansion.)

      Dare I add in my recyclers? >< Maybe with all the increased resources dropping all over the universe these will be needed! 8D Plus with the potential of AI attacks at nodes the AI would escort the Fast Recycler if I balanced the speed correctly.. And the small is just needed for the reality of more resources early game because of the ease of AI dieing as LF,LC, others escort and as potential fodder as the game progresses.


      Impulse Recycler: (IR)

      Cost: Min: 2,000; Cry: 1,000; Deut: 0
      Structure: 3,000
      Hull: 300
      Shield: 5(3?)
      Attack: 1

      RF:
      • EP: 5
      • SS: 5
      From:
      • DS: 250
      Speed: 1,000(I)
      Cargo: 5,000
      Fuel: 150

      Prereqs: Shipyard: 2 or 3; Impulsedrive: 1



      This is a short range duetless ship for around your planets! Not sure on the travel times but you would quickly grow past them or keep them to pick up those small pieces of stuff around your planets you won't use a big RE for. Also it allows you to recycle easier early game as it has low prereqs.

      This could have RF against it also.. I'm not sure from what though. I avoided addressing that part of the ship altogether. It does not mean it does not have RF against or from anything.

      Or

      Impulse Recycler: (IR)

      Cost: Min: 2,500; Cry: 1,500; Deut: 0
      Structure: 4,000
      Hull: 400
      Shield: 5 or 10
      Attack: 1

      RF:
      • EP: 5
      • SS: 5
      From:
      • DS: 250
      Speed: 1,000(I)
      Cargo: 5,000
      Fuel: 150

      Prereqs: Shipyard: 2 or 3; Impulsedrive: 1

      Alternatively or with this...:

      Hyperspace Recycler: (HR)

      Cost: Min: 3,000; Cry: 5,000; Deut: 1,000
      Structure: 8,000
      Hull: 800
      Shield: 25
      Attack: 1

      RF:
      • EP: 5
      • SS: 5
      From:
      • BS: 3?(And/Or BC: 3, etc, or nothing)
      • DS: 250
      Speed: 2,000(H)
      Cargo: 10,000
      Fuel: 300

      Prereqs: Shipyard: 7; Hyperdrive: 3; HyperTech: 3



      Combine it with:
      Gravity Generator <-Link; And possibly this: Moons giving chance of fleet destruction to planets <- link

      And you have one heck of an interesting special server! 8)

      ***If gravity tech is needed for early planet defense hypothetically it's stats could be lowered and the level of grav raised for DS so it can be used more for other lower applications. This would depend on need of planet defense. Which might be needed as this idea as a whole allows much slimmer margins of profitability if I'm not mistaken.

      Edit: BTW, how could you sim this with new ships... Do people just use spread sheets? I'm not sure if I'm up to designing one to simulate attacks atm... (I do have one with a lot of ship stats in it though.)

      Edit2: another cool idea would be to vary simply the galaxy distances more per universe. In fact have them move around and make the distance vary. They could have a numerical representation representing galaxy location and have the distance change over time. Either live or updated intermittently. this could hypothetically be applied to universes if they wanted to link some and make the game more interesting with a greater than 9 galaxy uni. It would also bring some more use to alliances and jump gates etc. It could also bring invasions as normal tactics as people would get to build up more uniquely. Especially as alliances. Though the risk of internal betrayal would also exist.

      I think the variable galaxy distance would be good for this is it were a special server. And they could use simple calculations to track and update galaxy movement. It's actually quite simple to do. track vector/coordinate display distance etc. Even some cooler displays could be used to get any idea where they are. All possibly updated at different times.

      Thinking of it the same thing would be cool for planets in solar systems and solar systems. And if galaxies were more random the travel would mean a lot more. And there could be close and distant galaxies with the positions changing over time! 8) Same with planets/ss. Planets with different elipse as well as distances would be cool. The temps could change as the planets moved even! Just need a simple random generator and some basic calculations and you are set. Easy to start and restart. At that point you could also have different number of planets per SS and maybe differnet number of ss/galaxies to fill in an average even if desired. Should also be very low resource if done correcty if I'm not mistaken. I beleive this would/could create alot more strategy for the game and spice it up. The distance could be a defense weapon and the unique characteristics would create a terrain to actually fight on giving the game more substance. Not to mention using Espionage and other things to actually get data and maybe adding exploration of SS and galaxies in some manner, at least to probe distance or other data, would open up more gameplay. at it's simplest you could probe individual planets for distance etc to get data to display in teh galaxy screen. You woudl also allow SS and Galaxy scans that need more probes and or take more skill too accomplish too allow data to display for an "alloted time"(could be based on skills also like espionage and/or astrophysics) on the galaxy screen for ease. Make it a seperate node where you scan from outside. And it could have an appropriate distance to scan the whole thing. SV could be good for helping probes scan somehow in this manner. The difference in distances could create all sorts of strategic situations adding more elements to the game. Obviously Planets could move faster than SS and SS faster than galaxies... Potentially. That could also vary and be unique per uni start/restart. It could also help respark unis without a harsher restart as it affects less.


      Ok, I thought of something I dont know why it took so long to think up. The AI potentially creates too much fodder and messes up defense. so what if instead of 500 it cost a total of 1,000 Min+Cry/Structure.

      And for Blackmass pretend this is now split up! 8) To balance this yo start with the AI, then do the carrier, then the SV as it is the counter to both! ;) Then you kind of work them around to get what you want from them!

      Automaton/ Living Ship/ Artifical Intelligence Combat Vessel: (AI) (REDO!!)

      Description:

      "Discovered while exploring the universes outer reaches. It has come to be known as the great scourge! After being found in the voids of space these ship attack and destroy nearly everything they come across. After several decades, these “living ships,” began understanding where these vessels were coming from and started to gradually move towards civilized space. As they began to pop up outside of populated planets fear and panic spread rapidly until it encompassed the entire universe. After decades of military and infrastructure losses the empires finally decided enough was enough and sent out people to try to capture these ships for study. Many lives were lost and a few brave, or lucky, souls managed to capture some of these ships for study. With this the research began that eventually led to the creation of the Automaton or Artificial Intelligence Combat Vessel!

      This, fast, cheap ship is a fantastic front line vessel. Because of it's AI it adapts very quickly to enemy tactics. Although seemingly weak on their own in large numbers are one of the most powerful weapons in your fleet! Despite this, because of rumors about how these ship were created, a persistent fear exists that these ships may one day develop minds of their own!

      **At Level 9 Combustion Drive is upgraded and the cargo is increased by 1 because of space saved by a faster more space efficient engine!"

      Cost:
      Min: 600; Cry: 400; Deut: 0 (min:500,cry:500,duet:0?)(What min/cry ratio should exist 10/0,9/1,8/2,7/3,6/4,5/5, those mirrored, or with fractional amounts?(Just has to equal 1,000 structure!))
      Structure: 1,000
      Hull: 100
      Shield: 50
      Attack: 10

      RF:
      From:(These all need to be reworked potentially!)(1 RF means no RF)
      • CR: 1 (upgrade to 2, start at 2, or stay at 1)
      • BC: 1 (upgrade to 2, start at 2, or stay at 1)?
      • DE: 1 (upgrade to 2, start at 2, or stay at 1)(Alternatively -2 RF from one other ship and 4 RF at upgrade for better counter against fully loaded carriers.)
      • AC: 10?
      • SV: 50
      • DS: 600?(Not sure what to change this too. Previously 1250.)
      • Final total RF after upgrades should always equal 666!(unless discovered otherwise)
      • Any other needed additions welcome! (for instance should the BS get 2 or 4 instead of the CR,BC,or DE?)
      Against:
      • EP: 5
      • SS: 5
      Fuel: 6(8@CD:9)
      Cargo: 10
      Speed: 5,000(C)(7,500(C)@CD:9)

      *The distance/operational range should potentially be the same as before! Though if anyone finds something better please tell me! 8p (it is currently designed so that at CD:20 it can go across all 9 galaxies independently! IE 180,000 practical range without other ships for fuel.)

      This would make it more like the EP which may balance more into the game... In this case less fodder and less affect on margins of attack values for fleeters while still giving room for more expansion(AKA becuase defense may need to catch up a hair now, or so my thought pattern goes!) This would also drop the ammount the Carrier holds down to 100. This could then be modified again at the new ratio for desired cost/attack(50,100,150 /w carrier cost of 100k, 150k, 200K.).

      BTW this makes a very interesting reality between AI swarms and defense. That was something I was having a problem figuring out as this should be an early game help to LF. This may solve that!

      Which AI design is better?

      Automatons/ Living ship/ Artificial Intelligence Combat Vessel (AI)(pre redo)
      Display Spoiler

      Description:

      "Discovered while exploring the universes outer reaches. It has come to be known as the great scourge! After being found in the voids of space these ship attack and destroy nearly everything they come across. After several decades, these “living ships,” began understanding where the vessels were coming from and started to gradually move towards civilized space. As they began to pop up outside of populated planets fear and panic spread rapidly until it encompassed the entire universe. After decades of military and infrastructure losses the empires finally decided enough was enough and sent out people to try to capture these ships for study. Many lives were lost and a few brave, or lucky, souls managed to capture some of these ships for study. With this the research began that eventually led to the creation of the Automaton.

      This, fast, cheap ship is a fantastic front line vessel. Because of it's AI it adapts very quickly to enemy tactics. Although seemingly weak on their own in large numbers are one of the most powerful weapons in your fleet! Despite this, because of rumors about how these ship were created, a persistent fear exists that these ships may one day develop minds of their own!

      **At Level 9 Combustion Drive is upgraded and the cargo is increased by 1 because of space saved by a new more efficient engine!"

      Cost:
      Metal: 300; Crystal: 200; Duet: 0
      Structure: 500
      Hull: 50
      Shield: 25(*2W(50))
      Attack: 5(*2W(10))


      *(Max number of AI in an AC times AI deut should always equal 5k duet! or AI cost no deut and carrier cost 15k deut.)?
      **W = Wild variant. It is the NPC natural version found in space. It will attack planets and be in expeditions.(*2 means 2 times the previous value!) (uncertain if this will exist)(outdated with redo! Must be reworked potentially to be usable. Probably won't exist unless in some other form as a monster in expeditions.)

      RF:
      From:(Possibly represents some sized MBL system being installed to fight AI, possibly @ ET:3;IT:3;CT:3 or other tech levels depending on ship)
      • HF: 1 (upgrade to 2, or start at 2, or 1!)
      • CR: 3
      • BS: 1 (upgrade to 4, or start at 4, or 1!)
      • BC: 1 (upgrade to 4, or start at 4, or 1!)
      • DE: 1 (upgrade to 4, or start at 4, or 1!)
      • AC: 20
      • DS: 1250
      • SV: 50
      • Note: if possible RF against should add up to no more than 1337!
      Against:
      • EP 5
      • SS 5


      *AI(w) Should share these RF values. It's only stat difference should be the double shield/attack.

      Speed: 5,000(C);7,500(C) @9 CD
      Cargo: 3@5000 (4@7500)
      Fuel: 5

      Prereqs: Shipyard: 2; LaserTech: 3; ComputerTech: 2; Combustion Drive: 2


      BTW: at 50 sheilds the LF and anything else with 50 attack have a K/R of 0.4 per attack against AI with this new design(previously .6 or .666...). So at current RF stats that would be LF: 0.4, SV: 20, AC: 4. The AIs kill rate should still be the same as before. Which is approx. Number of AI/10.

      I think the SV should fire before almost everything else in the fire order. The new fire order should be SV, AI, LF, etc; or AI, SV, LF, etc. The carrier might also fire before LF to help the LF and other ships kill AI unless a better fire order can be made up. I'm still working on that aspect.

      Anyone know the right way to calculate the odds off something shooting the Carrier over the amount of AI it carries? I currently divide the total AI by the total shots made by all ships and then divide the number of shots by that number again. Example: 1 carrier with 100 AI vs 15 HF: 100/15=6.6666; 15/6.66666= 2.25. I assume the odds are the HF will hit the carrier up to 2.25 times in that round. Is this a good method? I'm trying to double check. I'm not quite sure if I'm thinking it out right.

      SPECIAL NOTE:

      Display Spoiler
      I look at amount of damage taken from AI by figuring out the damage per round (Attack-Enemy Shields), multiply by 6 for all rounds, then subtract (15*AI attack value(1ship)*Enemy ships K/R) This tells you how much damage the opposing ships take. Then divide by the number of ships. If they all survive it is accurate. If not it's an estimate.

      I use 15 because after the 1st round that ship does not do damage for 5 rounds. then the second round losses do not do damage for 4 rounds etc. This is 5+4+3+2+1=15. This is my general way of estimating what damage will look like in combat.

      Example: AI vs HF(equal min+cry value)

      10,000/1,000= 10*10= 100-25= 75*6= 450-(15*10*1)= 300/1,000= 0.3 If all goes evenly the HF will survive a straight up fight. And kill 6/10 AI!.


      Another note: The carrier does not generate AI's. You have to build them separately. It is a means to lower the fuel cost by replacing it's fuel cost and speed for AI that can fit in it's cargo.

      ****** Also, if these(normal AI) attack planets randomly, without 2x upgrade bonuses to attack it cannot get past a small shield dome. This means it's free resources/moon chance and a loss of some defense. With the special item mentioned it is also a means of softening targets besides IPM's. It also helps you refine your defense better than without because of repetition on top of many other benefits like making it easier for fleeters to potentially get attacks from random AI assualts leaving more open for attack randomly. This would open up the game for more defense and more back and forth play throughout the universe. Or at least alleviate some of the strength of turtles a little and make the gameplay closer to organic again.

      Combat notes:
      • The DE, like other ships, is better at countering the Carrier the more carriers there are. The carrier seems to naturally get weaker against ships as you increase their numbers...
      • The HF is now very powerful against AI and carriers defense/offense wise. It now has a good role compared to the LF. This should bring it's use back a little more and give BC and other ships back into normal use besides just against CR.
      • The BS may or may not have a new role like the HF. It depends how it interacts in the new environment. It may be good against SV though, or mixed properly with other ships for added hits against capital ships, or mixed with BC against other ships in general. ( I take that back. It has it's original role. A much more, cost effective, anti HF/fodder over the BC and DE. And now HF are a little more useful per say.)

      The post was edited 134 times, last by Articulon ().

    • Alternative design: (AKA the newest version) Design #2

      Science Vessel: (SV)
      Display Spoiler

      Description:

      "State of the Art. It is the first ship designed primarily for exploration. The Science Vessel is fast, agile,and made to deal with the rigors of deep space. It is good in almost any situation. It's main purpose is to take down the newly discovered AI's that have been found roaming through the void. Having been developed along side the Micro Burst Ion Laser(MBIL or MBL for short),this ships Ion cannons fire very rapidly. It cannot damage larger structures like the large shield dome, but it can do small damage to a large number of ships. Especially against the AI for which it was designed to kill. This ship is very versatile, but it can be taken down. So be careful how you use it!

      This ship is fitted with a special scanner allowing it to act like an espionage probe in regard to expeditions.(may or may not exist)

      Cost:
      Metal: 25k; Crystal: 25k; Duet: 25k(I wonder if this could be half Deut(25k, etc) as a special circumstance do to it's tiny base damage.
      Structure: 50k
      Hull: 5k
      Shield: 300 500
      Attack: 50

      RF:
      From:
      • DS: 10
      • SV: 5 (3 if 300 shield)
      Against: (All ships smaller than the SV follow the original RF formula: "(RF formula: (SV Metal + Crystal/Shipx Metal + Crystal)*(1*Shipx Base Shield Value)/50 rounded up at .3". The larger ships are equal to 1/2 their base shield value per round)
      • LF: 3
      • HF: 3
      • CR: 2
      • BS: 2
      • BC: 4
      • BO: 5
      • DE: 5
      • DS: 3
      • SC: 3
      • LC: 2
      • CS: 3
      • EP: 5
      • SS: 5
      • AI: 50 (This should apply to Wild AI as well. It is simply this ship with a boosted attack and/or shield if it exists.)
      • AC: 3
      • SV: 5
      • IC: 5
      • GC: 2
      • Total: 100
      • RF and duet cost on the SV are a special circumstance.
      Fuel: 300?
      Speed: 10,000(I)
      Cargo: 1,000?

      Prereqs: Shipyard: 6; EnergyTech: 6; Laser Technology: 7; Ion Technology: 5; EspionageTech:5?; Computer Technology: 6; Shield Technology: 5?; Astrophysics: 2
      Or:
      Science Vessel: (SV)(New smaller version)
      Display Spoiler

      Description:

      "State of the Art. It is the first ship designed primarily for exploration. The Science Vessel is fast, agile,and made to deal with the rigors of deep space. It is good in almost any situation. It's main purpose is to take down the newly discovered AI's that have been found roaming through the void. Having been developed along side the Micro Burst Ion Laser(MBIL or MBL for short),this ships Ion cannons fire very rapidly. It cannot damage larger structures like the large shield dome, but it can do small damage to a large number of ships. Especially against the AI for which it was designed to kill. This ship is very versatile, but it can be taken down. So be careful how you use it!

      This ship is fitted with a special scanner allowing it to act like an espionage probe in regard to expeditions.(may or may not exist)

      Cost:
      Metal: 15k; Crystal: 15k; Duet: 15k
      Structure: 30k
      Hull: 3k
      Shield: 300
      Attack: 50

      RF:
      From:
      • DS: 30
      • SV: 3
      Against: (All ships smaller than the SV follow the newer RF formula: "(SV Metal + Crystal/Shipx Metal + Crystal)*(1*Shipx Base Shield Value)/30 rounded up at .3". The larger ships are equal to 1/2 their base shield value per round)
      • LF: 3
      • HF: 3
      • CR: 2
      • BS: 2
      • BC: 4
      • SC: 3
      • LC: 2
      • CS: 3
      • EP: 5
      • SS: 5
      • AI: 30 (This should apply to Wild AI as well. It is simply this ship with a boosted attack and/or shield if it exists.)
      • AC: 5
      • SV: 3
      • Total: 60
      • RF and duet cost on the SV are a special circumstance.
      Fuel: 300?
      Speed: 10,000(I)
      Cargo: 1,000?

      Prereqs:
      Shipyard: 6; EnergyTech: 6; Laser Technology: 7; Ion Technology: 5; EspionageTech:5?; Computer Technology: 6; Shield Technology: 5?; Astrophysics: 2
      Automatons/ Living ship/ Artificial Intelligence Combat Vessel (AI)
      Display Spoiler

      Description:

      "Discovered while exploring the universes outer reaches. It has come to be known as the great scourge! After being found in the voids of space these ship attack and destroy nearly everything they come across. After several decades, these “living ships,” began understanding where the vessels they attacked were coming from and started to gradually move towards civilized space. As they began to pop up outside of populated planets fear and panic spread rapidly until it encompassed the entire universe. After decades of military and infrastructure losses the empires finally decided enough was enough and sent out people to try to capture these ships for study. Many lives were lost and a few brave, or lucky, souls managed to capture some of these ships for study. With this the research began that eventually led to the creation of the Automaton.

      Because of it's AI this unmanned ship adapts very quickly to enemy tactics and is very difficult to hit. This makes the AI a fantastic front line vessel. And although seemingly weak on their own in large numbers are one of the most powerful weapons in your fleet! Despite it's benefits, because of rumors about how these ship were created, a powerful fear persists that these ships may one day develop minds of their own!

      **At Level 9 Combustion Drive is upgraded and the cargo is increased by 1 because of space saved by a new more efficient engine!"

      Cost:
      Metal: 500; Crystal: 500; Duet: 0, 50, or 75(if smaller SV exists)?
      Structure: 1,000
      Hull: 100
      Shield: 50 (25 minimum)
      Attack: 10

      RF:
      From:(Possibly represents some sized MBL system being installed to fight AI, possibly @ ET:3;IT:3;CT:3 or other tech levels depending on ship)(Actual tech levels for upgrades still undetermined)
      • CR: 1 (upgrade to 2, or start at 2 )
      • BC: 1 (upgrade to 2, or start at 2 )
      • DE: 1 (upgrade to 2, or start at 2 )
      • AC: 10 (30 if Smaller SV is used)
      • DS: 600
      • SV: 50 (30 if Smaller SV is used)
      • Note: if possible RF against should add up to no more than 666!
      • For pre-existing ships it may be needed to ignore RF against AI to when considering balance. This could be excused more easily if they are added as upgrades and not initially on any pre-existing ships except possibly the DS.
      Against:
      • EP 5
      • SS 5
      *AI(w) Should share these RF values if it exists. It's only stat difference should be the double shield/attack.

      Speed: 5,000(C) (7,500(C)@CD:9)
      Cargo: 6 (8@CD:9)
      Fuel: 10

      Prereqs: Shipyard: 2; LaserTech: 3; ComputerTech: 2; Combustion Drive: 2

      ACV/AICV Carrier (AC)

      Display Spoiler
      Description:

      "After endless complaining from capitol ship captains about getting enough fighters to the front lines, an ambitious group of engineers set out to developed the carrier! It's purpose is to hold the newly developed unmanned Artificial Intelligence Combat Vessel(AICV). This hardy Fast ship can carry AICVs at the speed of soun.. ligh... Hyperspace at a much greater efficiency than they can travel alone! This ship has massive inside structures that can hold these AI and has specialized equipment that can deploy them nearly instantaneously. This ship will likely be escorting, and combating, the most powerful vessels in the known universe! With the implementation of carriers, capitol fleets have never been happier!

      Because of Space concerns regarding the AI it must carry this ship was only fitted with a miniaturized MBL system"

      Cost:
      Metal: 25K; Crystal: 25K; Deuterium: 0/1,250, or 7.5K(if 30 RF)?
      Structure: 50k
      Hull: 5k
      Shield: 500
      Attack: 50

      RF:
      From:
      • DS: 6
      • SV: 5
      Against:
      • EP: 5
      • SS: 5
      • AI: 10 (30 if Smaller SV exists)
      Fuel: 500
      Speed: 5,000(H)
      Cargo: 10,000(adjust to fit max number of AI.)

      Prereqs: Shipyard: 8; EnergyTechnology: 8; LaserTechnology: 9; Ion Technology: 7; HyperspaceTechnology: 5; ComputerTech: 8; HyperspaceDrive: 4?

      *Can hold AI equal to the AI's Base Hull value. It can do this because of highly specialized equipment inside the carrier designed specifically for AI vessels.

      These ships cannot hold anything but AI vehicles(At base hull value) and resources.

      *If number of AI held is changed so can the overall cost of the AC and It's Mineral/Crystal ratio to various values. Still uncertain of what those should be. This can also change the RF against AC from the SV.


      This is basically my originally design but with the AI bigger. Might need to be adjusted with new RF from the DS now to fit new costs potentially.

      Also any amount/rate of AI receivable from expeditions could be adjusted for game balance. It would make them much more viable if they can be found since they are weaker against defense now with the change in cost ratio.

      ***I would prefer the AI shields were 50, carrier held 100 AI, SV did only 50 base damage if possible, and the AI should probably only do 10 base damage. But if unbalanced any of those could be changed.

      Ships Mineral cost at ((1xMin+3xCry)/1,000):
      Display Spoiler

      AI(100)+AC = CA = Carrier/Carrier group.
      Ship=Green
      Defense=Purple
      Other=Orange

      • AI: 2
      • RL: 2
      • EP: 3
      • LL: 3
      • LF: 6
      • SS: 6
      • SC: 8
      • ABM: 8
      • HL: 12
      • HF: 18
      • IC: 20
      • IPM: 20
      • LC: 24
      • RE: 28
      • SSD: 40
      • CR: 41
      • SV@30k: 60
      • GC: 65
      • CS: 70
      • BS: 90
      • SV@50k: 100
      • AC: 100
      • BO: 125
      • BC: 150
      • PC: 200
      • LSD: 200
      • DE: 210
      • CA: 300
      • DS: 17000

      Survivability VS DS for 6 rounds with 1:3 min:cry ratio(17000/((ShipMinx1+Cryx3)/1000)/(DSRFx6)):(Higher is better)
      Display Spoiler

      AI(100)+AC = CA = Carrier/Carrier group.
      Ship=Green
      Defense=Purple
      Other=Orange
      • SSD: 425
      • PC: 85
      • LSD: 85
      • AC: 4.722...
      • LL: 4.722...
      • SV@50K: 2.833...
      • DE: 2.698412698..
      • AI: 2.3611...
      • LF: 2.3611...
      • RL: 2.3611...
      • HL: 2.3611...
      • CR: 2.09411185..
      • CA: 1.5740740...
      • SV@30K: 1.5740740...
      • HF: 1.5740740...
      • SC: 1.4166...
      • IC: 1.4166...
      • BC: 1.259...
      • BS: 1.049382716..
      • DS: 1 or 0.166...?
      • BO: 0.9066...
      • GC: 0.8717948718..
      • EP: 0.755...
      • LC: 0.722...
      • RE: 0.404761..
      • SS: 0.377...
      • CS: 0.1619047619..

      Ships Mineral cost at ((1xMin+3xCry+Deutx6)/1,000):
      Display Spoiler

      AI(100)+AC = CA = Carrier/Carrier group.
      Ship=Green
      Defense=Purple
      Other=Orange

      • AI@500/500/0: 2
      • RL: 2
      • AI@500/500/50: 2.3
      • AI@500/500/75: 2.45
      • EP: 3
      • LL: 3
      • LF: 6
      • SC: 8
      • SS: 9
      • HL: 12
      • HF: 18
      • IC: 20
      • ABM: 20
      • LC: 24
      • RE: 40
      • SSD: 40
      • CR: 53
      • GC: 77
      • IPM: 80
      • BS: 90
      • AC@25/25/0: 100
      • CS: 130
      • AC@25/25/7.5: 145
      • SV@15/15/15: 150
      • LSD: 200
      • BO: 215
      • BC: 240
      • SV@25/25/25: 250
      • DE: 300
      • CA@75/75/0(min): 300
      • PC: 380
      • CA@75/75/15(min): 390
      • DS: 23,000


      board.en.ogame.gameforge.com/b…13208-rip-rf-calculation/ <-With this in mind. What do people think?

      FYI, the Carrier is a potential light fighter bouncer. Think of a potential BO/DE/Carrier combo!

      If you use the 1:3 cost analysis(lets say it's a convenient upper end compared to the 1:1 ratio), at even tech levels, the LF and AI potentially bounce each other. AI vs HF the HF can't be hurt but kills the AI(Lone AI not a carrier). And HF bounce AI, If it's in a carrier group, but kills it making it a one way fight again. This means that HF might be more blatantly useful combined with other ships giving it purpose depending on the Tech ratios. This isn't always needed but it's an option if the tech is at values where the LF cannot bust past the AI. LF is still the best ship for killing capitol ships of all fodder. And AI and LF support one another in that task. But now HF has some potential use if the LF is stopped by AI increasing the HF's potential use in combat. AI is abysmal at killing large ships. Especially when considered from the ratios of a carrier group. AI is what you would call true fodder! It's a cheaper way to run EP fodder(Cheaper as far as mineral/crystal are concerned not duet/fuel usage.). But it's values are a bit different when used with carriers making the carrier group a whole different ship also.

      CR, BC, and DE have RF against AI to assist in getting past any AI to get to the other targets they have RF against, whether ground or ships targets. HF does not need it per say or would be too powerful with it given the current design. Other ships are not designed for such RF or can use other ships assistance and hence do not have it.

      SV has two potential shinning characteristics. One is that is has a higher Shield ratio than most other ships. But being a big ship it can't really make other ships hit it(not to mention it can't take too many of those hits.). Two is when the RF value gives it a higher damage output than other ships. This only happens in two circumstances. When there is AI and/or if there is a wide enough number of ship types available not sufficiently countered by items it doesn't have RF against( Those being mostly ground targets) to give it equal or greater damage characteristics value wise.

      **Also can anyone help me find where there are any specific glaring imbalances or other issues? I would love the input. I'm trying to find any and improve the idea. But I'm kind of slow at it. Once I'm feeling up to relearning probability properly I'll go over the fodder side more carefully again and the RF additions.
      My probability calculations! (Someone tell me if these are wrong please!! ><)
      Display Spoiler

      If you use 1:3 mineral:crystal ratio and put 50 LF against a carrier group you get:

      100 AI vs 50 attack at 50 damage(50LF or 1SV?)       stattrek.com/online-calculator/binomial.aspx This will give a potential average combat for 6 rounds!

      Key:
      • 1. 2. 3. means how many hits the AI will be hit with during the round(1, 2, or 3). The value next to it is the number of kills likely produced by that hit rate.
      • Row 4 is how many AI are flying around at 50% hull at the end of that round that were not likely killed..
      • Kills in row 1 equal how many of the 50% health from the previous round are likely killed that round(number of AI in 4 previous round times percentage of Hits that hit only 1 AI 1 time. It's a shorthand way to calculate it but I think it works out. I virtually rounded everything else down to compensate.)
      • The (#) next to the round number is the number of AI alive at start of each individual round.
      input:
      • Probability of success on single trial = 1/number of AI at beginning of round
      • Number of trials = 50
      • Number of success (x) = 1, 2, and 3 individually.

      Results:(This assumes even tech levels.)

      Round 1: (100)
      1. *0
      2. 4
      3. 1
      4. 4(50%)
      5. 5(total killed)
      Round 2: (95)

      1. 1
      2. 4
      3. 1
      4. 7(50%)
      5. 6(total killed)

      Round 3: (89)

      1. 2
      2. 4
      3. 1
      4. 9(50%)
      5. 7(total killed)
      Round 4: (82)

      1. 3
      2. 4
      3. 1
      4. 10(50%)
      5. 8(total killed)
      Round 5: (74)

      1. 3
      2. 4
      3. 2
      4. 11(50%)
      5. 9(total killed)
      Round 6: (65)

      1. 4
      2. 4
      3. 2
      4. 12(50%)
      5. 10(total killed)
      Remainder: 55
      This should basically prove the AI, SV, LF, HF warfare is balanced. The SV is always beneficial to add to any group of fighters/ships when replacing an cost equivalent amount of them. And should also be useful to add to any group in the game against AI.

      Now I just need to calculate this right to see how much it takes to kill a Carrier group and the carrier beneath more accurately to adjust shielding etc.

      Edit: I'll have to add more charts in later. I wish there was a chart function available to post into to condense this!

      FYI, if anybody doesn't get where this is going. I have to find the odds of LF fighting a carrier on it's own. Then find out how much when adding in one SV and replacing the relative value for LF. Then two SV. Then three SV. One Carrier group cost 150k(150) total minerals and is worth 300 points when compared to a 1:3 mineral crystal value. The SV cost 50 on a 1:1 ratio and 100 on a 1:3 ratio. It always takes 3 SV to equal one carrier group(AKA AC+AI(100) or a carrier with a full 100 AI loaded.). A LF cost 4 on a 1:1 ratio and 6 on a 1:3 ratio. Note: The points are divided by 1,000 from their actual or relative cost to make them easier to use as in the above charts.

      On a 1:3 ratio That is LF: 50 | SV:1; LF: 33.3... | SV:2; LF: 16.6...| SV: 3

      This is one of the SVs main purposes. I also have to figure out the strength of all other ships vs the Carrier still more accurately. I have been doing so but with less than accurate means.

      On a 1:1 ratio it's LF: 37.5 | SV: 1; LF: 25 | SV: 2; LF: 12.5 | SV: 3

      **I still have to figure out Carrier vs Carrier combat accurately! I also have to make sure the design isn't to dependent on SV. (That likely isn't a problem considering how weak AI is to defense.)

      Does this idea at least count for a general proof of concept for the above ship types?

      The post was edited 152 times, last by Articulon: Being a grammar nazi! Not a good grammar nazi, but a grammar nazi none the less. Or adjusting ship vavlues. ().

    • Here is my latest version: (Version #3)(previously new idea for AI with 1500 structure)

      [url]http://board.us.ogame.gameforge.com/board178-ogame-us/board93-suggestions/board141-ships-defense/67392-scourge-of-the-ai-expansion-3-ships/#post544447      [/url] Post #10

      This is a compilation from version #2. The small SV and the changes that go with it.

      Edit: I wonder if the SV needs hyperspace upgrade to help out with Cruisers and BC or is their AI killing ability sufficient? Or do I need to readjust the RF against AI?

      Note: AI shields could go down to as far as 25 base. They just might not be as good against ground defense. And base cost ratio night need to be adjusted. Not sure how much if any though. The SV's base attack could also go up to 75 for balance as well as possibly the AC's base damage. Either or both changes could balance the design out if it is off. Raising the attack and keeping the shields would maintain the balance of AI vs Rocket launchers and LF while allowing the SV and AC to be more effective.
      Science Vessel: (SV)(New smaller version)

      Display Spoiler
      Description:

      "State of the Art. It is the first ship designed primarily for exploration. The Science Vessel is fast, agile,and made to deal with the rigors of deep space. It is good in almost any situation. It's main purpose is to take down the newly discovered AI's that have been found roaming through the void. Having been developed along side the Micro Burst Ion Laser(MBIL or MBL for short),this ships Ion cannons fire very rapidly. It cannot damage larger structures like the large shield dome, but it can do small damage to a large number of ships. Especially against the AI for which it was designed to kill. This ship is very versatile, but it can be taken down. So be careful how you use it!

      This ship is fitted with a special scanner allowing it to act like an espionage probe in regard to expeditions.(may or may not exist)

      Cost:
      Metal: 15k; Crystal: 15k; Duet: 15k
      Structure: 30k
      Hull: 3k
      Shield: 300
      Attack: 50 75? (Preferably 50)

      RF:
      From:
      • DS: 30
      • SV: 3
      Against: (All ships smaller than the SV follow the newer RF formula: "(SV Metal + Crystal/Shipx Metal + Crystal)*(1*Shipx Base Shield Value)/30 rounded up at .3". The larger ships are equal to 1/2 their base shield value/50 per round)

      • LF: 3
      • HF: 3
      • CR: 2
      • BS: 2
      • BC: 4
      • SC: 3
      • LC: 2
      • CS: 3 (If RF of AI is change to 33 this can be removed)
      • EP: 5
      • SS: 5
      • AI: 30 (Alternatively 33. See other ship notes.)
      • AC: 5
      • SV: 3
      • Total: 60
      • RF and duet cost on the SV are a special circumstance.
      Fuel: 300
      Speed: 10,000(I)
      Cargo: 1,000?

      Prereqs: Shipyard: 6; EnergyTech: 6; Laser Technology: 7; Ion Technology: 5; EspionageTech:5?; Computer Technology: 6; Shield Technology: 5?; Astrophysics: 2
      Automatons/ Living ship/ Artificial Intelligence Combat Vessel (AI)

      Display Spoiler
      Description:

      "Discovered while exploring the universes outer reaches. It has come to be known as the great scourge! After being found in the voids of space these ship attack and destroy nearly everything they come across. After several decades, these “living ships,” began understanding where the vessels they attacked were coming from and started to gradually move towards civilized space. As they began to pop up outside of populated planets fear and panic spread rapidly until it encompassed the entire universe. After decades of military and infrastructure losses the empires finally decided enough was enough and sent out people to try to capture these ships for study. Many lives were lost and a few brave, or lucky, souls managed to capture some of these ships for study. With this the research began that eventually led to the creation of the Automaton.

      Because of it's AI this unmanned ship adapts very quickly to enemy tactics and is very difficult to hit. This makes the AI a fantastic front line vessel. And although seemingly weak on their own in large numbers are one of the most powerful weapons in your fleet! Despite it's benefits, because of rumors about how these ship were created, a powerful fear persists that these ships may one day develop minds of their own!

      **At Level 9 Combustion Drive is upgraded and the cargo is increased because of a new much more efficient engine!"

      Cost:
      Metal: 500; Crystal: 500; Duet: 75
      Structure: 1,000
      Hull: 100
      Shield: 50
      Attack: 10

      RF:
      From:(Possibly represents some sized MBL system being installed to fight AI, possibly @ ET:3;IT:3;CT:3 or other tech levels depending on ship)(Actual tech levels for upgrades still undetermined)
      • CR: 1 (upgrade to 2, or start at 2 )
      • BC: 1 (upgrade to 2, or start at 2 )
      • DE: 1 (upgrade to 2, or start at 2 )
      • AC: 30 (If CR/BC/DE's RF is unneeded Their RF could be remove and the RF from SV and AC could be increased to 33 for each.)
      • DS: 600
      • SV: 30
      • Note: if possible RF against should add up to no more than 666!
      • For pre-existing ships it may be needed to ignore RF against AI to when considering balance. This could be excused more easily if they are added as upgrades and not initially on any pre-existing ships except possibly the DS.
      Against:
      • EP 5
      • SS 5
      Speed: 5,000(C) (7,500(C)@CD:9)
      Cargo: 6 (8@CD:9) *(if cargo cannot be changed in game then it should probably be 8 by default.)
      Fuel: 10

      Prereqs: Shipyard: 2; LaserTech: 3; ComputerTech: 2; Combustion Drive: 2

      ACV/AICV Carrier (AC)
      Display Spoiler

      Description:

      "After endless complaining from capitol ship captains about getting enough fighters to the front lines, an ambitious group of engineers set out to developed the carrier! It's purpose is to hold the newly developed unmanned Artificial Intelligence Combat Vessel(AICV). This hardy Fast ship can carry AICVs at the speed of soun.. ligh... Hyperspace at a much greater efficiency than they can travel alone! This ship has massive inside structures that can hold these AI and has specialized equipment that can deploy them nearly instantaneously. This ship will likely be escorting, and combating, the most powerful vessels in the known universe! With the implementation of carriers, capitol fleets have never been happier!

      Because of Space concerns regarding the storage of AI, this ship was only fitted with a partial MBL system"

      Cost:
      Metal: 25K; Crystal: 25K; Deuterium: 7.5K
      Structure: 50k
      Hull: 5k
      Shield: 500
      Attack: 50 75? (Preferably 50)

      RF:
      From:
      • DS: 6
      • SV: 5
      Against:
      • EP: 5
      • SS: 5
      • AI: 30 (Alternatively 33. See other ship notes.)
      Fuel: 500
      Speed: 5,000(H)
      Cargo: 10,000(adjust to fit max number of AI.)

      Prereqs: Shipyard: 8; EnergyTechnology: 8; LaserTechnology: 9; Ion Technology: 7; HyperspaceTechnology: 5; ComputerTech: 8; HyperspaceDrive: 4?

      *Can hold AI equal to the AI's Base Hull value. It can do this because of highly specialized equipment inside the carrier designed specifically for AI vessels.

      These ships cannot hold anything but AI vehicles(At base hull value) and resources.

      The only down side to this change was that I was hoping to make it so these weapons were a lesson in fodder. Where the amount of times they double hit an enemy was their means of attack etc. It seems like a more interesting addition for the game like that. Once I get over the math more accurately I can go over those designs. But I think the 50 Shield design can be done. I was just hoping to do it without increasing the size of the AI or certain other factors(changing AI structure is probably the next best option to adjust without changing the shield values. This would require a proportional change to duet cost and attack as well. And a change to the number of max AI held by the carrier.). I kinda got attached to it how it is at the size of an EP. Not that it matters but it would be cool to get it as a cheaper EP fodder for the game as well. I was trying to fill in as many factors for the game as I could simultaneously. Maybe too many. Hopefully I'll finish going over it all eventually.

      Alternative 1500 structure design: (This would be needed if ships need to get more hits and be more likely to damage AI and carriers from an odds standpoint. Up to 2000 structure feasible. But 2k structure makes small shield domes useless against AI when the damage is increased proportionally.) Also uncertain which size is better. If used in combo the carriers affect will be thinned out by other ships escorting it. The 1500 structure AI may be too big as it may thin the affect of AI fodder too much when grouped with other ship types. Uncertain if this is a problem or not.
      Science Vessel: (SV)(New smaller version)

      Display Spoiler
      Description:

      "State of the Art. It is the first ship designed primarily for exploration. The Science Vessel is fast, agile,and made to deal with the rigors of deep space. It is good in almost any situation. It's main purpose is to take down the newly discovered AI's that have been found roaming through the void. Having been developed along side the Micro Burst Ion Laser(MBIL or MBL for short),this ships Ion cannons fire very rapidly. It cannot damage larger structures like the large shield dome, but it can do small damage to a large number of ships. Especially against the AI for which it was designed to kill. This ship is very versatile, but it can be taken down. So be careful how you use it!

      This ship is fitted with a special scanner allowing it to act like an espionage probe in regard to expeditions.(may or may not exist)

      Cost:
      Metal: 15k; Crystal: 15k; Duet: 15k
      Structure: 30k
      Hull: 3k
      Shield: 300
      Attack: 50

      RF:
      From:
      • DS: 30
      • SV: 6
      Against:
      • LF: 3
      • HF: 3
      • CR: 2
      • BS: 2
      • BC: 4
      • DE: 3
      • SC: 3
      • LC: 2
      • EP: 5
      • SS: 5
      • AI: 27
      • AC: 6
      • SV: 6
      • Other RF combos could be used
      Fuel: 300
      Speed: 10,000(I)
      Cargo: 1,000?

      Prereqs:
      Shipyard: 6; EnergyTech: 6; Laser Technology: 7; Ion Technology: 5; EspionageTech:5?; Computer Technology: 6; Shield Technology: 5?; Astrophysics: 2

      For the most part, besides AI/SS/EP, all RF against ships follow the newer RF formula: "(SVBaseStructure / ShipxBaseStructurel) * ShipxBaseShield) / Y rounded up at .3". For smaller ships Y = 25. For equal or larger ships Y= 50
      Automatons/ Living ship/ Artificial Intelligence Combat Vessel (AI)

      Display Spoiler
      Description:

      "Discovered while exploring the universes outer reaches. It has come to be known as the great scourge! After being found in the voids of space these ships attacked and destroyed nearly everything they come across. After several decades, these “living ships,” began understanding where the vessels they attacked were coming from and gradually moved towards civilized space. As they began to pop up outside of populated planets fear and panic spread rapidly until it encompassed the entire universe. After decades of military and infrastructure losses the empires finally decided enough was enough and sent out people to try to capture these ships for study. Many lives were lost and a few brave, or lucky, souls managed to capture some of these ships for study. With these captures the research began that lead to the eventual creation of the Automaton.

      Because of it's AI this unmanned ship adapts very quickly to enemy tactics and is very difficult to hit. This makes the AI a fantastic front line vessel. And although seemingly weak on their own in large numbers are one of the most powerful weapons in your fleet! Despite it's benefits, because of rumors about how these ship were created, a powerful fear persists that these ships may one day develop minds of their own!

      **At Level 9 Combustion Drive is upgraded and the cargo is increased because of a new much more efficient engine!"

      Cost:
      Metal: 750; Crystal: 750; Duet: 100(alternatively 1250/250/x, 1000/500/x, or other min/cry ratios)
      Structure: 1,500
      Hull: 150
      Shield: 50 (RP wise the AI shield is in part from it's agility and hence from deflection/avoidance of incoming attacks.)
      Attack: 15

      RF:
      From:
      • CR: 1 (upgrade to 2 or 3, or start at 2 or 3 )
      • BC: 1 (upgrade to 4 or 5, or start at 4 or 5 )
      • AC: 27
      • DS: 600
      • AC: 33
      • Total RF against AI should not total more than 666 or 667!
      • CR: 2; BC: 5 makes them equal against carriers.
      Against:
      • EP 5
      • SS 5
      Speed: 5,000(C) (7,500(C)@CD:9)
      Cargo: 9 (12@CD:9) *(if cargo cannot be changed in game then it should probably be 12 by default.)
      Fuel: 15

      Prereqs: Shipyard: 2; LaserTech: 3; ComputerTech: 2; Combustion Drive: 2

      ACV/AICV Carrier (AC)
      Display Spoiler

      Description:

      "After endless complaints from capitol ship captains about getting more fighters to the front lines, an ambitious group of engineers set out to developed the carrier! It's purpose is to hold the newly developed unmanned Artificial Intelligence Combat Vessel(AICV). This hardy Fast ship can carry AICVs at the speed of soun.. ligh... Hyperspace at much greater efficiency than they can travel alone! This ship has massive inside structures that can hold these AI and has specialized equipment that can deploy them nearly instantaneously. This ship will likely be escorting, and combating, the most powerful vessels in the known universe! With the implementation of carriers, capitol fleet captains have never been happier!

      Because of Space concerns regarding the storage of AI, this ship was only fitted with a partial MBL system"

      Cost:
      Metal: 25K; Crystal: 25K; Deuterium: 8.3K (Alternatively other min/cry ratios)
      Structure: 50k
      Hull: 5k
      Shield: 500 (300?)
      Attack: 50

      RF:
      From:
      • DS: 6 (9?)
      • SV: 6
      Against:
      • EP: 5
      • SS: 5
      • AI: 33
      • Duet cost of AC and full carrier of AI should cost approx. 15,000 duet total.
      Fuel: 500
      Speed: 5,000(H)
      Cargo: 10,050(adjust to fit max number of AI.)

      Prereqs:
      Shipyard: 8; EnergyTechnology: 8; LaserTechnology: 9; Ion Technology: 7; HyperspaceTechnology: 5; ComputerTech: 8; HyperspaceDrive: 4?

      *Can hold AI equal to the AI's Base Hull value. It can do this because of highly specialized equipment inside the carrier designed specifically for AI vessels.

      These ships cannot hold anything but AI vehicles(At base hull value) and resources.
      AI 1320 structure! 8) (Carrier holds 75 AI.) Themed heavily on the number 666/667, 2/3 or other fractions of 3. This version has a lot of the above 1500 structure version. but has it's own qwerks. Still not sure if the lower number of AI per carrier is an issue or not.
      Science Vessel: (SV)(New smaller version)

      Display Spoiler
      Description:

      "State of the Art. It is the first ship designed primarily for exploration. The Science Vessel is fast, agile,and made to deal with the rigors of deep space. It is good in almost any situation. It's main purpose is to take down the newly discovered AI's that have been found roaming through the void. Having been developed along side the Micro Burst Ion Laser(MBIL or MBL for short),this ships Ion cannons fire very rapidly. It cannot damage larger structures like the large shield dome, but it can do small damage to a large number of ships. Especially against the AI for which it was designed to kill. This ship is very versatile, but it can be taken down. So be careful how you use it!

      This ship is fitted with a special scanner allowing it to act like an espionage probe in regard to expeditions.(may or may not exist)

      Cost:
      Metal: 12k; Crystal: 18k; Duet: 15k?
      Structure: 30k
      Hull: 3k
      Shield: 300
      Attack: 50

      RF:
      From:
      • DS: 30
      • SV: 3?
      Against:
      • LF: 3
      • HF: 3
      • CR: 2
      • BS: 2
      • BC: 3
      • BO: 3
      • DE: 3
      • SC: 3
      • LC: 2
      • EP: 5
      • SS: 5
      • AI: 27 or 30 (If 27 then add 3 RF elsewhere.)
      • AC: 3or6?
      • SV: 3 or6?
      • Total: 60
      • Other RF combos can be used.
      Fuel: 300
      Speed: 10,000(I)
      Cargo: 2,000

      Prereqs:
      Shipyard: 6; EnergyTech: 6; Laser Technology: 7; Ion Technology: 5; EspionageTech:5?; Computer Technology: 6; Shield Technology: 5?; Astrophysics: 2

      For the most part, besides AI/SS/EP, all RF against ships follow the newer RF formula: "(SVBaseStructure / ShipxBaseStructurel) * ShipxBaseShield) / Y. Y=25 if shipx has less structure than SV, else Y=50.

      Alternative SV Stats:(description/prereqs/fuel/cargo/speed same as before)
      Display Spoiler
      Cost:
      Metal: 8k; Crystal: 12k; Duet: 10K
      Structure: 20k
      Hull: 2k
      Shield: 200
      Damage: 50

      RF:
      From:
      • DS: 30
      • SV: 2
      Against:
      • LF: 2
      • HF: 2
      • CR: 2
      • BS: 2
      • BC: 2
      • BO: 2
      • DE: 2
      • SC: 2
      • LC: 2
      • AI: 20
      • SV: 2 Or 3
      • AC: 2 Or 3
      • Total: 40(adjust to fit)
      Automatons/ Living ship/ Artificial Intelligence Combat Vessel (AI)

      Display Spoiler
      Description:

      "Discovered while exploring the universes outer reaches. It has come to be known as the great scourge! After being found in the voids of space these ships attacked and destroyed nearly everything they come across. After several decades, these “living ships,” began understanding where the vessels they attacked were coming from and gradually moved towards civilized space. As they began to pop up outside of populated planets fear and panic spread rapidly until it encompassed the entire universe. After decades of military and infrastructure losses the empires finally decided enough was enough and sent out people to try to capture these ships for study. Many lives were lost and a few brave, or lucky, souls managed to capture some of these ships for study. With these captures the research began that lead to the eventual creation of the Automaton.

      Because of it's AI this unmanned ship adapts very quickly to enemy tactics and is very difficult to hit. This makes the AI a fantastic front line vessel. And although seemingly weak on their own in large numbers are one of the most powerful weapons in your fleet! Despite it's benefits, because of rumors about how these ship were created, a powerful fear persists that these ships may one day develop minds of their own! "

      Cost:
      Metal: 660; Crystal: 660; Duet: 66
      Structure: 1,320
      Hull: 132
      Shield: 50 (RP wise the AI shield stat is in part from it's agility and hence from deflection/avoidance of incoming attacks.)
      Attack: 18

      RF:
      From:
      • CR: 1 (upgrade to 2, or start at 2)?
      • BC: 1 (upgrade to 4, or start at 4)?
      • BO: 1 (upgrade to 3, or start at 3)?
      • SV: 27 or 30 (If 27 then distrubute 3 or 4 more RF to these or other ships?)
      • DS: 600
      • AC: 27
      • Total RF against AI should not equal more than 660, 666 or 667!
      • Uncertain which RF should be used.
      Against:
      • EP 5
      • SS 5
      Speed: 5,000(C), (7,500(C)@CD:9)
      Cargo: 6
      Fuel: 6(9@CD:9)

      Prereqs: Shipyard: 2; LaserTech: 3; ComputerTech: 2; Combustion Drive: 2

      ACV/AICV Carrier (AC)
      Display Spoiler

      Description:

      "After endless complaints from capitol ship captains about getting more fighters to the front lines, an ambitious group of engineers set out to developed the carrier! It's purpose is to hold the newly developed unmanned Artificial Intelligence Combat Vessel(AICV). This hardy Fast ship can carry AICVs at the speed of soun.. ligh... Hyperspace at much greater efficiency than they can travel alone! This ship has massive inside structures that can hold these AI and has specialized equipment that can deploy them nearly instantaneously. This ship will likely be escorting, and combating, the most powerful vessels in the known universe! With the implementation of carriers, capitol fleet captains have never been happier!

      Because of Space concerns regarding the storage of AI, this ship was only fitted with a partial MBL system"

      Cost:
      Metal: 30k; Crystal: 10k; Deuterium: ?
      Structure: 40k
      Hull: 4k
      Shield: 400
      Attack: 50

      RF:
      From:
      • DS: 8
      • SV: 3?
      Against:
      • EP: 5
      • SS: 5
      • AI: 27
      Fuel: 300
      Speed: 5,000(H)
      Cargo: 10,000(adjust to fit max number of AI.)

      Prereqs: Shipyard: 8; EnergyTechnology: 8; LaserTechnology: 9; Ion Technology: 7; HyperspaceTechnology: 5; ComputerTech: 8; HyperspaceDrive: 4?

      *Can hold AI equal to the AI's Base Hull value. It can do this because of highly specialized equipment inside the carrier designed specifically for carrying AI vessels.

      These ships cannot hold anything but AI vehicles(At base hull value) and resources.

      The post was edited 145 times, last by Articulon ().

    • 2000 Structure Design:

      Totally new idea that may make this design easier! A new type of RF specific too these new ships(SV and AC not AI.) That has a single number but can hit any type of ship. An any type or @ RF. So if you have 20 of this RF you can hit 20 times but it picks from a random/any type of target. It also costs 500 duet per point instead of the normal 250 normally specified for ship design. The @RF duet cost also cannot be reduced by other bonuses but if other RF exists along side it those can.

      Note: Consider the MBL system to be the @/any RF.

      Min/Crystal ratios can be modded, along with other stats, to give ships the appropriate placing in the game.

      Automatons/ Living ship/ Artificial Intelligence Combat Vessel (AI)

      Display Spoiler
      Description:

      "Discovered while exploring the universes outer reaches. It has come to be known as the great scourge! After being found in the voids of space these "Living Ships" began to attack and then destroy and devour nearly everything they come across. Over time these ships slowly began following their victims back to their origin and gradually moved towards civilized space. As they began to pop up outside of populated planets fear and panic spread rapidly wherever they were encountered until it encompassed the entire universe. As the empires fought off these ships they discovered most of their internals were made of an easily destroyed and quick decaying form of organic material making them nearly impossible to study after death. This lead to many frustration in trying to understand them and find a weakness to exploit. After decades of military and infrastructure losses the empires finally decided enough was enough and spent their full resources sending people out to try to capture these ships live for study. Many lives were lost and a few brave, or lucky, souls managed to capture some of these ships for study. With these captures the research began that lead to the eventual creation of the Automaton.

      The Automaton is a highly maneuverable, unmanned, short range, interceptor. This AI driven vessel is highly adaptive and quickly adjusts to enemy tactics no matter the circumstances. Because of that AI It can easily and quickly be sent out to aid any battle while requiring very little logistics. This and it's cost make it one of the most powerful front line vessel in the universe. Despite this, paranoid rumors persist that these ships can develop minds of their own!

      *The shields of this ship are reflective of it's ability to dodge and deflect incoming attacks reducing the damage effectively. Not just purely from shielding. The AI is also outfitted with a faster engine at Combustion Drive 10."

      Cost:
      Metal: 1600; Crystal: 400; Duet: 20 (Or 1350/650/?)(See chart below for alternative prices)
      Structure: 2000
      Hull: 200
      Shield: 15
      Attack: 20

      RF:
      From:
      • BC: 3 or 4
      • CR: 2?And/Or DE: 2?*
      • SV: 5, plus up to 6
      • DS: 400
      • AC: up to 10
      Against:
      • EP 5
      • SS 5
      Speed: 5,000(C), (7,500(C)@CD: 10)(Alternatively this upgrade could happen at ID: 5)
      Cargo: 10
      Fuel: 10(15@CD: 10)(Alternatively this upgrade could happen at ID: 5)

      Prereqs: Shipyard: 2; LaserTech: 2; ComputerTech: 2; Combustion Drive: 2

      *Possibly an upgrade at some point. The RF against AI could be split up to allow variation of playstyles at different tech levels.

      If it's possible the engine and fuel change of the AI could happen based on impulse drive tech instead of combustion drive tech. But it would still be a change to a higher combustion drive. The logic could be it was no longer useful for escorting SC and hence was bumped up in engine capacity to escort the LC as the next closest ship and to improve the ships general travel times.
      Science Vessel (SV)
      Display Spoiler

      Description:

      "State of the Art. Created from the shell of the Colony Ship. The Science Vessel is fast, agile, and made to deal with the rigors of deep space to both explore and help destroy the new menace. Because of the new threat from Living Ships, it has been designed to have a more solid defense and improved engines for greater speed than it's predecessor. Also, being developed along side the Micro Burst Ion Laser(MBIL or MBL for short), this ships Ion cannons fire very rapidly giving it a unique damage capability. This comes at the price of damage to larger structures like the large shield dome, but it gains the ability to fire on a larger number of targets, particularly the Automaton for which it was designed to kill. This combination has resulted in one of the most versatile ships in the universe.

      When you reach the appropriate tech levels your colony ships are turned into Science Vessels and inherits both it's strengths and weaknesses. It is still used for colonization missions and it is also fitted with special scanners allowing it to act like an espionage probe during expeditions." (Alternatively it could be a separate ship and lose the ability to colonize planets)

      *Hypothetically this could replace the espionage probe altogether in expeditions. Not just gain the ability for expeditions like the Espionage Probe. Then one ship would be dedicated to each task.

      Cost:
      Metal: 10k; Crystal: 20k; Duet: 3k (Alternatively 20k/10k/3k)
      Structure: 30k
      Hull: 3k
      Shield: 150 - 300?
      Attack: 50

      RF:
      From:

      • DS: 27? Or 30
      • BC: 3
      Against:

      • EP: 5
      • SS: 5
      • AI: 5 (Cost neutralized via the -1250 duet cost.)
      • @: 6
      Fuel: 300
      Speed: 10,000(I)
      Cargo: 2,250

      Prereqs: Shipyard: 6; EnergyTech: 6; Laser Technology: 6; Ion Technology: 6; Computer Technology: 6; Shield Technology: 6; Astrophysics: 2

      Automaton/AI Carrier (AC)
      Display Spoiler

      Description:

      "After endless complaints from capitol ship captains an ambitious group of engineers set out to developed the carrier! It's purpose is to carry the newly developed unmanned Artificial Intelligence Combat Vessel(AI). This hardy Fast ship can carry AI to battle at the speed of soun.. ligh... Hyperspa..., at much greater efficiency than they can travel alone! This ship has massive structures dedicated to holding these AI and has specialized equipment that can both dock and deploy them nearly instantaneously. This vessel is the crown of the Empires and will be escorting, and combating, the most powerful ships in the known universe! With this new and impressive ship, capitol fleet captains have never been more satisfied!

      *The Carrier can hold AI equal to the AI's Base Hull value. It can do this because of highly specialized equipment on the carrier designed specifically to accommodate AI vessels."


      Cost:
      Metal: 20k; Crystal: 30k; Deuterium: 5k (See chart below for alternative prices)
      Structure: 50k
      Hull: 5k
      Shield: 250
      Attack: 50

      RF:
      From:

      • DS: 8?
      Against:

      • EP: 5
      • SS: 5
      • @: 10
      Fuel: 500
      Speed: 5,000(H)
      Cargo: 10,000

      Prereqs: Shipyard: 8; EnergyTechnology: 8; LaserTechnology: 8; Ion Technology: 8; HyperspaceTech: 4; ComputerTech: 8; HyperspaceDrive: 4; ShieldTech: 8
      HypserspaceDrive:4 may be a good starting point for the carrier but I'm uncertain. 3 May also be good since the AI drops it's fuel to cargo ratio a level early if level 9 combustion is equivalent to level 3 hyperdrive. Other setups could be used also. I have yet to determine the ideal prerequisites.

      This ship(The carrier) only hold AI vehicles(At base hull value) and resources.

      ***When the Carrier is fully loaded with AI, the cargo is completely filled by their base hull value. This leaves only the AI's cargo space for fuel initially. A total of 500 cargo.
      Mineral/Crystal ratio examples: (for full carrier = CA = AC+AI(50); 150k)
      Display Spoiler


      Best choices: ***
      • AI: 1,000/1,000 + AC: 10k/40k = 60k/90k = 0.666...
      • AI: 1,000/1,000 + AC: 25k/25k = 75k/75k = 1
      • AI: 1,000/1,000 + AC: 40k/10k = 90k/60k = 1.5
      • AI: 1,200/800 + AC: 20k/30k = 80k/70k = 1.142857...***
      • AI: 1,350/650 + AC: 12.5k/37.5k = 80k/70k = 1.142857...
      • AI: 1,350/650 + AC: 20k/30k = 87.5k/62.5k = 1.4 ***
      • AI: 1,350/650 + AC: 22.5k/27.5k = 90k/60k = 1.5
      • AI: 1,350/650 + AC: 25k/25k = 92.5k/57.5k = 1.608695652..
      • AI: 1,350/650 + AC: 30k/20k = 97.5k/52.5k = 1.857142...
      • AI: 1,350/650 + AC: 32.5k/17.5k = 100k/50k = 2
      • AI: 1,600/400 + AC: 20k/30k = 100k/50k = 2 ***
      • etc.

      Compared to:
      Display Spoiler


      • LF: 3/1 = 3
      • HF: 6/4 = 1.5
      • CR: 20/7 = 2.857142...
      • BS: 45/15 = 3
      • BC: 30/40 = 0.75
      • BO: 50/25 = 2
      • DE: 60/50 = 1.2
      • DS: 5/4 = 1.25
      • SC/LC: 1/1 = 1
      • CS: 10/20 = 0.5
      • RE: 10/6 = 1.666...
      • EP/SS: 0/x = 0[/spoiler]
      Display Spoiler
      Carrier
      Display Spoiler
      Description:

      This is the compiled stats for the carrier. An automaton carrier with 50 AI.

      Cost:
      Metal: 100k; Crystal 50k, Deuterium: 6k
      Structure: 150k = AC: 50k + AI(50): 100k
      Hull      : 15k = AC: 5k + AI(50): 10k
      Shields: 750 = AC: 250 + AI(50): 500 (up to @ AI: 20 and AC: 500; Shields: 1500 = AC: 500 + AI(50): 1000 depending on chosen shield scheme)
      Attack: 1500 = AC: up to 500(10*50) + AI(50): 1000

      *@RF does not automatically hit one type of target for x times. It can hit X times each time picking from any type of target until RF ceases to happen.

      RF:
      From:
      • DS: AI: 400; AC: 8
      • BC: AI: 4; AC: 2
      • CR: AI: 2
      • SV: AI: 5+@6; AC: @6
      • AC: AI: @10; AC: @10
      Against:
      • EP: 255
      • SS: 255
      • @: 10
      Cargo: AC: 10,000 - AI(50): 9,500 = 500
      Fuel: 500
      Speed: 5,000(H)
      Prerequisites: See individual ships.


      *Shields could also be setup with 10 on AI and 500 on AC for 1000 total or 20 on AI and 250 on AC for 1250 with the given shield values. Uncertain of if 20 shields is too powerful on AI or not. It slows down the LF which could be good as it is meant to escort the DE and could be it's value when traveling with other capital ships or against any LF. This could be countered by the enemy having the proper proportion of Ships to take them down.



      I also still think having random attacks by randomly generated amounts of AI at Debris fields and/or Colony attempts could be fun. And it would make getting both a little more involved. Say they are hiding in the debri and sometimes come out and attack in swarms. These would not be any players AI but ones running around in the game, "invisibly." Same with colony attempts potentially. Uninhabited planets could always be home to rogue AI ships. This could require you to win the battle so successfully inhabit the planet or gather your debris. This could make them game a little more interesting.

      Expeditions:

      If expedition points are still based on (structure/1,000)x5. Then using 480SC, 33HF, 5SV, or 3SV+30AI, makes a perfect 12k points. No need for a probe anymore either if the SV gets the probes ability in expedition. Then you don't have the awkward 5 points from the espionage probe hanging around! 8)

      You can also do 400SC, 33HF, 11SV, 1DE and either +1SV or +3HF, or 15AI(at 10 points each), etc to fill in the last 150 points, or any other combo of those ships to easily fill in the 12k points and farm ships.

      And if fully loaded carriers, SV, and AI can pop up in alien and pirate groups it would be a good trainer to learn to fight them.

      I think a new type of attack could also be implemented. Pure AI/living ship swarms(scourge attack?). they could have the exact same tech as you and be a full AI swarm with small, medium, and large like now.

      "We have detected an unusual reading of small unidentified objects floating around in space on our sensors. For some reason they seem to have begun steadily be moving towards us. We will report back shortly with more information... RED ALERT!!! All hands to stations and open fire! Prepare the medical bays in case of injuries."


      Visuals/RP:

      So, if we can say AI/living ships look like unidentified floating objects on ship sensors. 8p Maybe that is a small idea as to what they could look like graphically. And maybe as to what they should look like attached to the automaton carrier. Maybe they sit into surface indentations on the surface of the Carrier which is in itself a giant unidentified floating object! >< It would be cool if when all 50 AI are attached it makes the Carrier look like a seamless large unidentified floating object.

      I think those spaces for AI should be shielded and be capable of holding cargo also.. duel purpose external cargo holds.

      And, FYI, I think I'm going to say that the carrier launches and lands the AI with something like tractor beam technology. Just like if it had to take up cargo in place of AI.

      As far as launching goes. I would say, being potentially round saucer shapes sitting on the outside, they can pivot them to any angle on the hull of the carrier and angle them so that they are pivoted on the diameter of the AI slightly escue on the surface in the direction they wish to launch. When it finally launches, they launch very rapidly outwards in the direction of that angle from the carriers hull. Then they aim them at the direction of the target and use laser/tractor tech in reverse to launch them at full speed. Being the shape and the bottom smooth it could quickly launch them in any direction while computing how to make sure they don't hit each other. Being AI they also have computers to deal with collision detection naturally.

      (If the AI and AC look like ufo's maybe the ufo design could be modeled after the saucer type shape from the already existing colony ship.)

      Other Notes:

      The fleet window would gain a check box to select "Load Carrier". This would make the carrier fill with AI prior to other cargo and replace the affected AI fuel cost for it's own. This check box would be greyed out when not applicable. This could also be default on instead of default off(or a setting could be put into the game settings to turn it default vs default off.). The carrier technically is a duel purpose cargo ship/ combat vessel.

      Optionally, the check box could open a window to also manually input the number of AI being carried. by default and empty box would mean fill them to max. Any data entered would change it to the given value. And deleting the box to no value would again make it max AI. This is if it is useful to manually use less AI for cargo purposes in some situation.

      Uncertain which of these three ships should be obtainable in expeditions.

      FYI, the Automaton carrier is a combat vessel using it's own weapons and up to 50 AI ships as weapons. It is not just a carrier for transport from planet to planet. It as a fully loaded weapon costing 150k total metal+crystal and does 1500 damage max per round(minus the loss of AI or the carrier body from combat). when used it replaces the fuel value for the AI it carries and uses it's own. When fully loaded it has no extra cargo space for fuel. But the AI themselves still have 500 (50x10) total cargo space between them for use.

      For fuel and combat purposes the Carrier is equivalent in attack and shields to 75 AI (The equivalent amount of AI for it's base structure/cost.). The carrier in effect allows the AI to transport in a smaller group(50) having the same cost/attack/shield/structure as an equivalent 75 AI, but it also has the fuel cost of 50 AI as if they had not gained the increase in fuel cost from the upgrade from 5000(c) to 7500(c) and 10-15 fuel. This allows them to fly later with the older fuel stats in a weapons package equivalent to the appropriate combat values. This saves fuel, gives greater base range, and eventually greater speed. It does come at the price of initially lower speed and reduced number of ships though. While it is still 33.33...% more fodder than the equivalent number of LF for the cost when using a carrier as transport, without the carrier it would be double the number of fodder over LF. The carrier ship also does not overtake the speed of a 7500(c) ship until around level 10 hyperdrive when treating level 10 hyperdrive as the equivalent to level 16 combustion drive.

      ****If there is a problem with carriers being destroyed and leaving AI with insufficient fuel. The AI that do not have enough fuel can be destroyed without giving resources. They can be said to vanish because they like in the ships description, "gained minds of their own!" That is probably not likely to happen. But It could. I would imagine a way can be found to check at the end of a mission how many previously carried AI are now without AC. That or just slow down the fleet on return to compensate for the fuel requirement for those AI without carriers by adding their extra 5 fuel per previously unaccounted AI. This could be a natural potential downside of using the carrier. Albeit unlikely depending on implementation. Though the triggering of such an event(specifically slowing the fleet down) could be turned into a strategy if one can figure out a way to force it! 8) (or gets lucky enough)

      As currently stands(500 carrier fuel/ 15 fuel per AI.) the carrier needs to travel 70k distance(3.5 galaxies), or aprox. 709 solar systems, at full speed, fully loaded with AIs to make up for the 5k fuel cost for the carrier body. So you will want to make sure the carrier body stays alive. Unless you don't care about the Duet that is. The crystal cost of the body may be more of a worry depending on the cost. This makes the Duet a nice extra incentive to keep them alive in combat if possible and use them more carefully.

      One of the values of the carrier is to be a more Metal Heavy alternative to the BC. But, you say, it cost more. Incorrect! The body cost more crystal. The combined cost of AI and the carrier is less heavy on crystal and comparable to the DE. A 50K AC plus 50 AI(100k) cost 150k total. 100k metal and 50k crystal. If the carrier bodies survive then this cost ratio improves or shifts towards the metal side as you replace AI. If you lose the carrier bodies(AC) your total cost ratio moves towards the crystal side. Kind of makes it a fun variable cost ship. It is countered by the SV at the same initial cost ratio and all other ships besides the BS and DE can take this vessel on. Albeit with varying abilities. And as usual multiple types of ships are more useful than just one, as is true in most cases.

      Going against AI and Carriers could force into the game some fundamental lessons in fodder that can currently be avoided. This could make fodder something you finally need to learn about a little(I think particularly early game) and not something to just mindlessly use to avoid losses! Assuming there are no imbalances/oversights in the design of course(Which it is probably filled with). This also gives some more life to cruisers and heavy fighters as well as giving a realistic and no overpowered counter to the Destroyer. It may also give some incentives to more complex fleet combos with, Hopefully evening out the game a bit and making everything in the game more worthwhile to use. Along wtih some upper and lower range spending vessels to help potentially even out resources a bit. I would imagine this might help make the game a little more active by having more fleets floating around to crash a bit more of the time. Atleast potentially. And hopefully more ways to crash them!

      AI and carriers could also give more playtime before Deathstars are the only or best option. Making normal fleets more useful for longer in the game.

      The post was edited 255 times, last by Articulon ().

    • New version!!

      To start. The AI is an anti RL fodder meant to be approx. even or better than the LF and use up a niche area in the game of using up larger amounts of Minerals. It's designed to be usable early game with the LF to increase potential profits as well as any point in the game at a penalty of more duet per distance. This version of the AI is what all the earlier stats since it gained 2000 structure were designed around. I just kept adjusting it because I wasn't sure if one thing(mostly shields) was too much or too little. It is designed to take two hits from RL for the same price. Meaning it can last a minimum of one rounds before possibly dieing to a RL. This is the reason for the higher shielding(80-20=60/200=.3; IE 30%) So it is cheaper than any other ship crystal wise but equal or better than the LF for fodder attacks. But obviously more expensive duet wise. Earlier it was equal to the HF in duet cost(10,000/2,000=5x15=75) after upgrade and the same as LF pre upgrade. It's speed was designed to be the same SC and then upgraded to the LC but this caused problems technically with the fuel/cargo ratio making the Carrier less valuable duet wise than it should/could be but giving it more feasibility escorting mostly anything like the HF. With 20 fuel and a set speed it should be much more obvious what it's role is. And it's escorting abilities are more natural to it's intent. Just calculate the ship it's escorting and see which is cheaper and good cost wise(though never as good without a carrier as other ship types).
      E.G. Relative Deut cost per ship cost vs AI.
      Display Spoiler

      *=better
      • BO: 75/2=37.5*20=750*
      • DE: 110/2=55x20=1100
      • BC: 70/2=35*20= 700
      • BS: 60/2=30*20=600
      • CR: 27/2=13.5*20=270*
      • HF: 10/2=5*20=100
      • LF: 4/2=2*20=40
      • DS: 9000/2=4500*20=90000
      If the AI are carried by a carrier(AC/CS) it is a ratio of cost/fuel of .3 making it better than the BC.(Higher is better)

      Display Spoiler

      • Old carrier +50AI: 150/500 = 0.3
      • CS+30AI: 90/300 = 0.3
      • BC: 70/250 = 0.28
      • LF: 4/20 = 0.2
      • HF: 10/150 = 0.1333...
      • CR: 27/300 = 0.09
      • BS: 60/500 = 0.12
      • BO: 75/1000 = 0.075
      • DE: 110/1000= 0.11
      • SC: 4/20 = 0.2
      • LC: 12/50 = 0.24
      • CS: 30/1000 = 0.03
      • CS: 30/300= 0.1 (new stats)
      • RE: 16/300 = 0.05333...
      • etc.



      The downside is it's max attack value (with "@RF") is always 0.1 cost to attack value. Where as the base value of the BC, and other similar vessels, is 0.1 before RF is considered. So,as you can hopefully see, @rf is always to bring cost/attack ratio up to minimum values. Not to give it any overly strong abilities like the purpose of other RF.


      Automatons/ Living ship/ Artificial Intelligence Combat Vessel (AI) (AI/ colony ship defense force?)(AI/CSD)
      Display Spoiler

      Description:

      "Discovered while exploring the universes outer reaches. It has come to be known as the great scourge! After being found in the voids of space these "Living Ships" began to attack and then destroy and devour nearly everything they come across. Over time these ships slowly began following their victims back to their origin and gradually moved towards civilized space. As they began to pop up outside of populated planets fear and panic spread rapidly wherever they were encountered until it encompassed the entire universe. As the empires fought off these ships they discovered most of their internals were made of an easily destroyed and quick decaying form of organic material making them nearly impossible to study after death. This lead to many frustration in trying to understand them and find a weakness to exploit. After decades of military and infrastructure losses the empires finally decided enough was enough and spent their full resources sending people out to try to capture these ships live for study. Many lives were lost and a few brave, or lucky, souls managed to capture some of these ships for study. With these captures the research began that lead to the eventual creation of the Automaton.

      The Automaton is a highly maneuverable, unmanned, short range, interceptor. This AI driven vessel is highly adaptive and quickly adjusts to enemy tactics no matter the circumstances. Because of that AI It can easily and quickly be sent out to aid any battle while requiring very little logistics. This and it's cost make it one of the most powerful front line vessel in the universe. Despite this, paranoid rumors persist that these ships can develop minds of their own!

      *The shields of this ship are reflective of it's ability to dodge and deflect incoming attacks reducing the damage effectively. Not just purely from shielding."

      Cost:
      Metal: 1600; Crystal: 400; Duet: 0
      Structure: 2000
      Hull: 200
      Shield: 20
      Attack: 20

      RF:
      From:

      • BC: 4
      • CR: 2
      • CS: up to 6?
      • DS: 400? (300,600?)
      Against:

      • EP 5
      • SS 5
      Speed: 5,000(C)
      Cargo: 10
      Fuel: 20


      Prereqs: Shipyard: 2; LaserTech: 2; ComputerTech: 2; Combustion Drive: 2

      Instead of an SV and AC as above the CS now becomes the carrier upon upgrade. The rest of the stats are the mostly the same as the CS's previous stats, but and it can carry up to 30 AI, it possibly gains 6"@" RF as from the previous post at some point from an upgrade, a hyper drive and base speed 5000 on an upgrade, Fuel is decreased upon upgrade to only 300. AI will still take up cargo based on their base hull value, or you could always pretend they have a separate bay or are resting on the outside of the ship and don't affect the cargo, but they don't use up fuel if carried by the carrier/CS. It can still colonize but if it takes AI it can leave the 30 AI on the planet as a defense force and they are not destroyed upon colony creation.

      CS/w 30 AI = 7500-(30x200)6000=1500+(30x10)300=1800/300=6 cargo/fuel ratio.

      Point of upgrade(s) for CS has/have yet to be determined.

      If the name is changed to AI with the colony ship defense force the entire back story could be changed to being an automated defense for colony outposts or similar. The use of AI merely being the most convenient way to do it.

      This would be much simpler compared to the other designs. The upgrades for the colony ship could happen independently over time also. It could be like a build a block ship that eventually becomes upgraded to practically act more and more like a carrier based on how many upgrades you have for it.

      So is this more in the right direction for a possible new ship design?

      Recap: If AI take up cargo space when carried by CS they would use up space equal to their Base HULL value. AKA 200.

      If a deathstar or other ship happens to wipe out more CS than AI and there is an issue with fuel calculations then the methods to slow down a fleet used in the Expedition could be used to slow it down and make it even more vulnerable to ninjas on it's return journey. Or any excess AI could be made to drift/be left behind, or gain minds of their own and flee alternatively.

      Total stats for CS with 30 AI:
      Display Spoiler

      Cost:
      Metal: 58,000(48k+10k); Crystal: 32,000(12k+20k); Duet: 10,000
      Structure: 90,000
      Shields: 700 (600AI+100CS)
      Attack: 650 or 900(900 with 6@rf on CS)

      RF:
      From:
      • DS: 400/250 (AI/CS) (Alternatively 450/15; 600/20; 600/15; 300/10)
      • BC: 4/? (AI/CS)
      • CR: 2
      • CS: up to 6(?)
      Against:
      • EP: 155
      • SS: 155
      Cargo: 1800(7500-6000=1500+300(AI))
      Fuel: 300 (900 total reduced to 300 for a 1/3 reduction in fuel cost)
      Speed: 5,000(H)



      *Another alternative design would be to give Battlecruisers the ability to to carry AI and throw out the colony ship as a carrier. But that might require some changes to AI's stats. Maybe if capital ships in general could help carry AI, LF, or HF at base hull value. At which point the colony ship could still carry it's amount and be the carrier as above for the most part. Maybe capitol ships can designate the amount of space after their fuel cost to carry any of the three fodder ships(AI,LF,HF).

      • CR: 800-300=500 (2AI,1LF)
      • BS: 1500-500=1,000 (5AI,2LF,1HF)
      • BC: 750-250= 500 (2AI,1LF)
      • DE: 2000-1000=1000 (5AI,2LF,1HF)
      • CS: 7500-1000=6500 (32AI,16LF,6HF)*original CS stats
      • CS 7500-300=7200(36AI,18LF,7HF)*New stats if not artificially limited
      • CS: (30AI,15LF,6HF)*Stats if artificially limited
      • DS: 1000000-1=999999(4999AI,2499LF,999HF)
      If only these ships could carry fighter craft it could be fairly interesting change in combat. DS would have use outside of large DS attacks in actual fleet combination and other ships could be more useful in combating them. It's not like their cargo is actually good for other stuff to start. I would also modify the DS RF against CS to make it more feasible in combat. Or leave it as a bad option against DS to simplify things.

      This might help give battleships some use again as they can pull the same as DE at half the price and less crystal! In fact they would be one of the better ships for carrying fighters.

      something even more kinky. You could hide the ships that are carried unless certain criteria are met. Then part of defense would be to figure out what they have to counter it correctly. then not every fight is so automatic or easy to figure out. If you don't have the tech or a phalanx(whatever allows this) you could not manage to find the exact info and would have to guess to some extent. Either completely or partially as it could give partial info as early espionage does. In fact early espionage could be the model for how much you see, but beyond the early levels and based on level difference at any stage in the game.

      This would turn fodder, particularly with DS into a rock paper scissors game of sorts. You would have to guess(with out proper intel or good deduction) which fodder and how much to counter. I think that would liven up the game quite a bit.

      Even if this were implemented on the DS and on the CS /w or /wo the carrier mods it would increase functional play of the game between mid and late game I would think and give more use for DS in combines fleets until you reach the point where just use DS if desired for certain attacks and levels of profitability.

      And even if all fodder were carriable to some degree it would still be more profitable to carry AI over other ships depending on circumstances.

      Edit: The Recycler(or other utility ships. Those could be designated AI carrier capable) could also be turned into a carrier but obviously it needs really high stats to be fast. It already has similar stats and if you changed it to use up cargo based on structure you would get a ratio of 2.6 mineral to crystal for a carrier setup making it closer to it's best counter, the Cruiser. I focus on the ratio of m/c because it seems most counters have a ratio designed based on what they counter to determine their cost. I'll assume the BC is so expensive is because it has so many things it counters and they probably add up.

      A recycler would be cool if it could carry 2 HF or 5 LF. Besides the speed making it useless. That is one reason adding random AI attacks at recycling spots would be cool. Or adding a delay like a free acs defend or attack could be interesting and making you wait for other to potentially attack and fight for resources. Say a 10 minute delay. At least in concept.

      The post was edited 39 times, last by Articulon ().

    • I've definitely refined this a little more. I think I've figured out the shields and attack values of the carrier and AI without having to resort to a new type of RF! (converted it to a whole number.)


      Automaton/AI Carrier (AC/CA)

      Display Spoiler
      Description:

      "After endless complaints from capitol ship captains, an ambitious group of engineers set out to developed the carrier! It's purpose is to carry the newly developed unmanned Artificial Intelligence Combat Vessel(AI). This hardy Fast ship can carry AI to battle at the speed of soun... ligh... Hyperspace, and at much greater efficiency than they can travel alone! This ship has massive structures dedicated to holding these AI and has specialized equipment that can both dock and deploy them nearly instantaneously. This vessel is the crown of the Empires and will be escorting, and combating, the most powerful ships in the known universe! With this new and impressive ship, capitol fleet captains have never been more satisfied!

      *The Carrier can hold AI in it's cargo equal to the AI's Base Hull value. It can do this because of highly specialized equipment on the carrier designed specifically to accommodate AI vessels."

      Cost:
      Metal: 20k; Crystal: 30k; Deuterium: 15k
      Structure: 50k
      Hull: 5k
      Shield: 500
      Attack: 500

      RF:
      From:
      • DS: 8
      • BC: 2
      Against:
      • EP: 5
      • SS: 5
      • AI: 5
      Speed: 5,000(H)
      Cargo: 10,000
      Fuel: 500(Deuterium) Or 375(Deuterium) <- I think 500 as it fits the
      2:1 trade ratio for Crystal-Deuterium. (50x20=1000/2=500)

      Prereqs: Shipyard: 8; EnergyTechnology: 8; LaserTechnology: 8; Ion Technology: 8; HyperspaceTech: 4; ComputerTech: 8; HyperspaceDrive: 4; ShieldTech: 8
      Automatons/ Living ship/ Artificial Intelligence Combat Vessel (AI)

      Display Spoiler
      Description:

      "Discovered while exploring the universes outer reaches. It has come to be known as the great scourge! After being found in the voids of space these "Living Ships" began to attack and then destroy and devour nearly everything they come across. Over time these ships slowly began to follow their victims back to place of origin, and gradually began to enter civilized space. As they began to pop up outside of populated planets fear and panic spread rapidly wherever they were encountered until it encompassed the entire universe. As the empires fought off these ships they discovered most of their anatomy were made of an easily destroyed and quick decaying form of organic material. This made them nearly impossible to study after death. This lead to many frustration in trying study them and find a weakness. After decades of military and infrastructure losses the empires finally decided enough was enough and spent their full resources sending people out to try to capture these ships alive for study. Many lives were lost and a few brave, or lucky, souls managed to capture some of these ships. With these captures began the research that lead to the eventual creation of the Automaton.

      The Automaton is a highly maneuverable, unmanned, short range, interceptor. This AI driven vessel is highly adaptive and quickly adjusts to enemy tactics no matter the circumstances. Because of that AI It can easily and quickly be sent out to aid any battle while requiring very little logistics. This and it's cost make it one of the most powerful front line vessel in the universe. Despite this, rumors persist that these ships can develop minds of their own!

      *The shields of this ship are partially the result of it's agility. And reflect it's ability to dodge and deflect incoming attacks reducing the damage effectively. Not just purely from raw shielding.

      The engines are upgraded at IC:5 to allow the ship to escort the Large cargo ship once the Small Cargo is upgraded."

      Cost:
      Metal: 1600; Crystal: 400; Duet: 0
      Structure: 2000
      Hull: 200
      Shield: 20
      Attack: 20

      RF:
      From:
      • BC: 5
      • DS: 400
      • HF: 2
      Against:
      • EP 5
      • SS 5
      Speed: 5,000(C), 7,500(C)@ IC:5
      Cargo: 10 (previously 15)
      Fuel: 20 (Crystal)

      Prereqs: Shipyard: 2; LaserTech: 2; ComputerTech: 2; Combustion Drive: 2

      Total Stats for Full Carrier+AI(50)
      Display Spoiler

      Cost:
      Metal: 100,000(80k+20k); Crystal: 50,000(20k+30k); Duet: 15k
      Structure: 150,000
      Hull: 15,000
      Shields: 1,500 (1,000AI+(500)CA)
      Attack: 1,500 (1,000AI+(500)CA)

      RF:
      From:
      • DS: 400/8 (AI/CA)
      • BC: 5/2 (AI/CA) <- Probably 5/2(AI/CA) Unless needed otherwise. Still going over combat scenarios for needed changes.
      • HF: 2 (AI)
      Against:
      • EP: 255
      • SS: 255
      • AI: 5
      Speed: 5,000(H)
      Cargo: 500(10,000-10,000=0+(50*(10))(AI))
      Fuel: 500(Deuterium) or 375(Deuterium)*See Carrier Stats for answer.

      Prereqs: See above ships.
      This design levels out both the Carrier and AI design in the simplest way possible. Also no SV to simplify things even more. This design maintains the Destroyer as the predominant combat ship as well as balancing it the carrier out as a good fodder delivery system and leaving other ships naturally where they should be in combat. The AI is now a stop for Cruisers early game if needed and the HF is the natural counter giving them potential needed use in all levels of game now. Not sure what else to say. The numbers, I believe, speak for themselves. My only question is still duet and possibly RF vs DS if anything. And maybe tweaks to prerequisites, unless I have missed something else. This is a much closer design to my original intent. Battleships are also very good against Carriers if they can get past the fodder to hit them giving them some very feasible use again in combat! I believe this brings general improved balance to the entire game.

      Basically, in the end, the carrier is a fodder bomber. Instead of delivering massive RF it delivers a mass of, very cheap, fodder vessels. This has it's advantage of making the ship effectively cheaper in regards to it's Mineral/crystal ratio cost over time, potentially, along with several other things. So, keep the carrier bodies alive!

      A full Carrier also have short range to balance it out. Around 64 systems, at 100% speed, at 500 fuel, if I'm not mistaken, while unaided by cargo and while full of AI. This should help balance out the power. The AI are also very short range having a range of only around 18 system at 100% Speed unaided and having very expensive fuel costs. (It has the same native range as the bomber.)

      With these ships tech will mean a lot. Anything with less tech may hunted down while those with higher tech may hunt these down themselves for easy resources, particularly the carrier bodies. Much like bombers! Except these are fuel efficient.

      Edit: Adjust fuel and shields of the Carrier to 375 along with the carriers attack to 500. The carrier now has a range of about 94 systems. Equal to the HF. One of it's counters. (Or slightly less if it has 500 fuel value.)

      If the carriers base damage is 500 the carrier has the ability to go toe to toe with equal cost value of Destroyers. If it's 375 it's aligned with Battleships instead. Uncertain which one is better. Calculate this by diving the carrier cost(150k) by the other ship and dividing the damage. Then calculate damage per round with shields accounted and then loss of AI per round. (((1500or1375potentialdamage)/(150k/shipbtotalcost)-shipbshield)*6)-(15*(Number of lost ships*damage)*RF)

      Example:

      Display Spoiler
      1500 damage:
      • 1500/(150/110)=1.363636...; 1500/1.363636...=1100-500=600*6=3600-(15*20)= 3300 <- The exact cusp for explosive chances for destroyers at even cost. (11000*0.3=3300)
      • 1500/(150/60)=2.5; 1500/2.5=600-200=400*6=2400-(15*20)=2100 <- Carrier superior to Battleships in equal cost value.(AKA 150k vs 150k)
      • 1500/3=500-200=300*6=1800-(15*20)=1500 <- 3 BS vs 1 Carrier at 1500 damage. I think this is more balanced.
      1375 damage:
      • 1375/(150/110)=1008.333...; 10008.333...-500=508.333...*6=3050-(15*20)=2750 <- Can't take down DE without impractical Tech bonus.
      • 1375/(150/60)= 2.5; 1375/2.5=550-200=350*6=2100-(15*20)=1800 <- same cusp for explosive damage as the Destroyer previously.


      It needs to be 500/500 or it is too weak. And for it to take on other carriers.

      Whether the AI hits before the Carrier body or not would also affect the Carriers ultimate capabilities.

      I think the biggest questions left are whether it should have 375 or 500 fuel. Equal to HF or less than HF. And how much deuterium should a carrier body cost. Also whether or not the BC should have RF against the carrier body and or whether it should have 4 or 5 RF against AI.

      If these ships were ever put into the game, the idea of planetary attacks could be a nice temporary event to go with their introduction(or for any server they are put into). It could also shake up the universe a bit.

      The post was edited 69 times, last by Articulon ().

    • I just noticed something. All of the ships take note of the fuel source(Deuterium). What if the AI used Crystal as it's fuel source and the Carrier used Deuterium? That might make it interesting. Especially early game. (I would assume same consumption values) That could be part of the tech they found. The AI ate crystals specifically for travel abilities over deuterium. Possibly ate metal also but probably for something like healing. Crystal was the inner fuel!! 8p

      Look at the post just before this for stats. It is now noted what fuel each uses. 8)

      To note, AI naturally traveled very slowly but ate whatever they could get. Or that is what I've been thinking this whole time. All of their flight design is for short term engagements when something is already in range. So short fast bursts and lots of agility to get the kill. So it has shorter long term speed but better shielding reflective of it's agility and hence defense/deflection. Plus it eats crystals.


      The other idea, of course, would be to let this also carry LF or HF on top of AI. It would save a small amount of fuel(At least for the HF) and could/would have added usefullness based on whether they ever allowed espionage tech to not show the ships in the carrier hull based on tech difference etc. I know that is a none permitted suggestion but it would be a potential logical course this could be taken if this were ever implemented.

      Carrier examples with LF&HF:
      Carrier with full LF(25)
      Display Spoiler

      Total:
      Cost: Mineral: 95K; Crystal: 55K; Deuterium: 15k (Min/Crys Ratio: 1.7272...)
      Structure: 150k
      Hull: 15k
      Shields: 750
      Attack: 1,750

      RF:
      From:
      • DS: 200/8 (LF/AC)
      • CR: 10 (LF)
      • BC: 2 (AC)
      Against:
      • SS: 130
      • EP: 130
      • AI: 5
      Speed: 5,000(H) <- Slower than on their own.
      Cargo: 250 <-Half the cargo.
      Fuel: 500 (Compared to: 25LF=500; 37.5LF=750) <-25=Actual carried LF; 37.5=compared to full structure/cost(150k/4k)

      Carrier with full HF(10)
      Display Spoiler

      Total:
      Cost: Mineral: 80K; Crystal: 70K; Deuterium: 15k (Min/Crys Ratio: 1.1428571...)
      Structure: 150k
      Hull: 15k
      Shields: 750
      Attack: 2,000

      RF:
      From:
      • DS: 100/8 (HF/AC)
      • BC: 4/2 (HF/AC)
      Against:
      • SS: 55
      • EP: 55
      • AI: 25
      Speed: 5,000(H) <- Much slower than on their own.
      Cargo: 250 <-Half the cargo.
      Fuel: 500 (Compared to: 10HF=750; 15HF=1125) <-10=Actual carried HF; 15=compared to full structure/cost(150k/10k)

      So, I guess it could be some fairly special use cases to even consider putting them in the Carrier in place of AI. But It could depend on your personal play style.

      The amount of coverage given to the Carrier based on which ship it is carrying might also be of consideration.

      The post was edited 10 times, last by Articulon ().