I support this idea mate. Why? Because I'm in love with you.
lol, joke

As you've stated, it's more than obvious today (about 5 years after implementon of BC) that BC pwns everything and is by far most useful heavy ship. Sure, you still need fodder, CR-s and some heavy ships but HF became useless and BS becomes synonym for bull***t. Yeah, believe it or not it's the way it is.

This is good proposal and I hope it'll lead to some constructive discussion and further ideas. Today BS gets built only in the cases when you have more than enough LF-s and surplus metal and crystal deposits combined with low deut supply so you can't invest in more BC-s. This way you're adding some force to your fleet but not as much as you would do with building BC-s and overall usefulness of your ress is way lower than it would be if you just traded your metal and crystal, bought some deut and build BC-s instead.

As I can see your main goal was to make BS more desirable to be built with adding RF against CR and in the same time lowering BC's RF against CR so CR doesn't get obsolete. Also destroyer would get bigger RF against BC and therefore be built in bigger numbers too. In the same time BC wouldn't be made obsolete and would get from "I pwn all" category to more "needed to be built for fleet balance" category. Also the cost of construction per resource would be at approx same lvl if you've chosen to build BS or BC-s, maybe BC would still have slightly bigger construction price but it would be mostly because of it's lower deut consumption.

Ofc that for futher disscusion we would need to see some fight simulations with RF system you propose and upgrade it if needed. Not sure if there's anyone who's interested and knows how to do that.

Also what about HF? That ship is even more useless than BS is nowadays. Once a long time before it was ship with a purpose because at the later point in the game you could build cannon fodder out of it instead of LF-s so your hit would be more profitable against players with bigger number of CR-s as they have RF of 6 vs LF-s. After BC-s were introduced with their RF of 4 vs HF-s they became completely useless and make less profit in crystal. Therefore BC-s RF vs HF should be either lowered or completely removed, on the other side HF-s price could vary in both ways to adapt it's usefulness and not make LF obsolete.

Sry that I have to say it but it's proven in practice that GF really did a wrong decision 5 years ago with introducing BC and making him so superior to the other types of vessels. They literally introduced one new ship and retired two. And it's even more lame that they did nothing for this whole time (even when it became obvious) to change this unbalance. Sry, I'm aware that nobody likes whiners but criticism is needed in this case.

Again... hope it'll lead to good discussion. Have fun people

I agree with some things here and I disagree with other things. i do think that the RF could need some kind of rebalancing and you might be on to something with the changes suggested, though it´s very hard to tell what the exact outcome would be without a lot of calculating, which I´m not really up to doing

I do however not agree with the statement that the BS has become useless and obsolete. This is more due to dying universes than anything else. The BC is at its absolute best when facing fleets that are much smaller than your own. But in full fleet attacks (or close to that) for instance, you would in fact often get a better result having put all you res into BSs instead of any of the BCs. When facing BCs or destroyers, LFs + BSs is a very powerful combination. And as stated previously, unless you use the merchant alot, you can´t really expect to keep pumping out only BCs as the fast powerful fleet alternative, you need BSs as well. Especially if your opponent has a fairly large portion of his fleet in destroyers you would want to have a bunch of BSs with you to break the RF. This is of course in the scenario where you think you need to make a swift attack to succeed. The point is, the BS is not useless, it´s just rarely used in late game due to the size of your opponents´fleets.

So the main reason that BS aren´t used that much in late game is simply that the difference between the top players and the rest is so big that generally you wouldn´t need to send a large portion of your fleet and then the BC is by far the best choice in almost any situation. So I wouldn´t exactly say that this is a balancing problem per se.

The HF being useless however is no doubt a balancing problem. The HFs job is mainly to protect the LFs against the CRs RF and the reason that most people don´t build it for that reason anymore is simply that they have realized that the SC does the exact same thing, only cheaper. The BC has RF against both these ships. Sure the RF against the HF is 1 unit higher, but that´s not the sole reason the HF is the worse choice. By completely removing the RF aginst the HF that problem would probably be solved, or even reducing it to a factor of 2 might work. Further balancing problem could arise from removing or reducing the RF though, I haven´t really given it alot of thought. My instinct tells me that it would probably be better to reduce the RF to 2, but some serious calculating have to be done to figure it out. I´m however absolutely certain that it wouldn´t make the LF obsolete even if the RF was completely removed, they´re simply not used for the same things and they never could be with just a simple change in RF against the HF.

Edit: I´m tired and when I read through my post again, the HF thing seemed mostly like random sentences put together, lol. When I think about it again I´m fairly sure that the SC would still be a better choice for protecting the LFs even if the RF against the HFs was completely removed. However if the RF were removed and people started building HFs again, the HFs themselves in enemy fleets could render the SC useless as fodder once again due to the RF they have against the SCs. Very hard to tell the outcome

Edit 2: After some minor calculating I can almost say for sure that removing the RF against the HF would in fact not make it more useful than the SC as fodder. Resource for resource the SC would still be alot better to use it seems, even when facing HF-heavy fleets

How long have you played the game, may i ask?

Because i really get the feeling you never lived to massive RIP vs fleet battles.
BS is great for those. Also BS is much more cost-effective than BS.
But in the long run, BC is simply more preferable due to low deut consumption and the fact that in late game the number of battles falls singnificantly, but on average in late game Unis BS:BC ratio is around 1:3 or even 1:2 because of RIPs and the need to put something against BCs, which the BS+LF combo do great.

Also it may seem like evey top player has craploads of BCs and no BS simply because the BCs fly more often.

You really need at least some sort of statistic on the BC and BBs numbers build in unis, not bold statements.

You didn`t answer my question about how long did you played in one uni.
The question of how do you destroy 100-1000 RIPs is very real, and BCs is not an answer. BS or Destroyers are.


Then you simply ignored the fact that BS is more cost effective(you can pretty much build 2 for each BC).
It is better than BC in balanced fleet combat.
BCs are next to useless against high number of RIPs.

So BC basically has it`s own league of steamrolling weak fleets, and fairly mobile support to your main LF+Cruiser ball,.. Other than that BS>BC.

There are kinds of ships like Bombers, and Destroyers that are far less common than BS, and by far by BC. Does it indicates a problem as such?
(well i may agree that there is a problem with Bomber, but it is because of it`s cargo capacity and deut use(or so i think), not just because their numbers are low)

How about I just claim that with good playstyle you can only build BCs and never bother any other ship except cargoes and recycles?
Now I need to make sure my voice is well heard to GF because there is a huge problem obviously.
In fact it is so obvious that i will not even bother putting in any sort of proof to it. My personal feeling is enough.



You do not provide any proof on what is wrong with BS`s.
You don`t provide any info on how much wrong is it.
Which means you didn`t analyse the problem in the first place, or didn`t bother to share.

So how can you provide constructive suggestion without analysing the issue?

Now, okay you can make a suggestion, sure. But claiming that there is a long-standing and widely ignored problem without any sort of proof
is way too much.
Less more reasoning.

/oftopicWell first of all org logs are such a crap to watch. Why not just make something nice like this:
XOMJAK vs. ejblk (П:4.997.113.000)
actually a log with 10k BS+20kDestrs and only 5k BCs on the attacker side. wantz more examples?
I just opened ogame.ru hall of flame, largest logs. Here goes.
logserver.net/index.php?id=d20…fb4de51470c6727a7c04a78b9
13k BS+15k BC.
logserver.net/index.php?id=d30…3667ca503d2496d81a19db09e
50k destr+50k BCs.
shahterov.net/tool/log.php?idu…72eb1c41118385182d4f9&old
~25 BS+25k BC.
Want more?
/oftopic

Then you complain about the fact that the ship with 3:1 met:cris is used as fodder?



So you don`t complain that Destroyers and Bombers are specialised ships with little numbers, but when BS is build as specialised ship(for RIP destruction and to cut down loses) this is somehow indicates a problem.



Then you complain that BC is a counter(large RF) to BS, so "BS became useles", but you don`t complain about Cruisers decimating LFs due to high RF, do you?

Also you don`t provide any calculations on what is wrong with BS yet again. All you say is applied on various cases in game and nobody(including you) complains about them.

Funny.