A much better suggestion to noob protection than the fleeing fleet

NusaDua · Oct 26th 2011, 11:23am

Iguypouf, it depends how the damaged fleet comes back.

If it requires a manual action from the defender to "activate" the return of part of his destroyed fleet, he won't be attacked again straight away, because he will say HIMSELF, "yes, I want my damaged ships to be back right now".
Yes, he will be an interesting target again, but he would have learnt from his previous mistake, and be given a second chances.
The link you make with the defense is not really relevant, consequently. If I didn't get your point, please explain again !

BTW, you have 30% in the debris field.
On the 70% left, according to the first proposal (the balance can be discussed)
70% would go to the defender (so at the end, he can get around 50% back max : 70% of 70%)...
30% would be dispatched on other places, and that can push people to have more fleet, even if they plan to crash it afterwards.
This system implies : renewable targets for the best fleeters, and more "action" for the farmers (who are not obliged to jump into it).

I know some people don't like the idea of "unexpected events" by from my point of view, I think it could bring more fun movements in the game.

Edit : Azgaroth was faster than me

Demon457 · Oct 26th 2011, 9:34pm

This idea is brilliant, until now i had not fully understood

, thanks Azgaroth for explaining it very well and NusaDua by complement it.

The only thing that i don't like were the "unexpected events" because i don't like to see players that win ships only by luck, i prefer that these ships will be considered "lost in space" and assume that these ships are found in the expeditions, is just my opinion

.

Definitely francolino propasal is much better than the fleeing fleet and definitely will keep noob players more time in the game giving them more opportunities.

+100000000 to this idea :thumbsup:

so...when the first test?

iguypouf · Oct 27th 2011, 11:03am

@Azgaroth & Nusudua :

Sorry to be "ridiculous" ( - just to take back your own words - ), but in the description, its written "fly randomly to the other planets".

Flies existing ? Stationate, Attack, Transport. In 2/3 cases minimum (Stationate and Transport), the defender receives is fleet back. On attack flies, another chances to get is fleet back if fight is nul or won.

So, the defender has a good percentage of chances to keep 70% of his whole fleet, and not 70% of 70%. If my understanding is false, the suggestion is not clear. You speak just as if you had understood : the fleet "reaches" the fleet of a neighbour. If its your suggestion, don"t speak about "unexpected events".

Regarding this, its very easy to build a push network : put a planet on the system of a top player, being attacked and "O, miracle", a part of the fleet goes increase the fleet of the top player ?

Regarding Azgaroth, you think my point of view is ridiculous, but I take just one kind of attacks I made :

Display Spoiler

Just after this raid, the defender says me :

"Good job. Now i'm a little bit quite, my defense can protect my transports... Good Game."

He keeps 70% of his defense, and has no more ships.

In your suggestion, he keeps at least 49% of ships, but I think more, so he represents for me a 35M - DF equivalent, and YES, for this i make another attack.

So YES, the defender, for the same fleet, looses more with your suggestion than now.

Your suggestion can work for fleeters, that looses fleet in return of DF or return of attack, and are a lot connected. But those players are not the one leaving the game fastest. No, it is players that connect some times a day or some days a week... which will receive more attacks.

Exactly like a player having 30k transports, who is a lot "tracked". When exploded, he can play quite. If "tracked" again because he keeps 20k transports, he will leave. I speek about MY EXPERIENCE of the whole list of victims I made.

Another example ?

A player make a very big defense, during 4 years he plays accuratly to never be interesting. One day, a player anywhere in the Universe looses 1.000 deathstars (RIP). 100 of them goes magically back his defense... And he looses 30% of his defense because, for the first time of his game, HE IS INTERESTING. And its not caused by a mistake, but by lack of chance. Do you think the player will not stop this stupid lotery game ?

And I repeat that this suggestion is an open bar for PUSH networks. You can attack two times a same victim to have more DF; you can receive ships from another... Sorry but if you don't see this fact, I'm surprised.

EDIT :

When we receive in our community the presentation of the fleet protection, we were some players to say "be careful : this proposition will encounter MORE attacks on little players than now". Lot of answers saying "you are ridiculous, its impossible, top players cannot attack them anymore...", but if you have a look to the results of the first test... Seems that we were right.

You always have to take a problem in a direction... And in the other one. For the protection, if a top player has less targets, those targets will be attacked MORE TIME. Its logical... And the facts are known, now.

NusaDua · Oct 27th 2011, 12:06pm

Hi Iguypouf,
First, I didn't say this idea was perfect and balanced, but I said it's better than the current system in the V3... I like it, I defend it, but if you or someone else prove that it is not a reallistic proposal, with FACTUAL arguments, then I will give up, no worries

I don't understand you first point (before your example), so I am not commenting it...

He keeps 70% of his defense, and has no more ships.
In your suggestion, he keeps at least 49% of ships, but I think more, so he represents for me a 35M - DF equivalent, and YES, for this i make another attack.

You assume that the damaged fleet is back straight away, which is not the case in the proposal. There is a delay before the fleet comes back, and possibly an action needed from the defender to activate the return. Unless the defender makes a second mistake after discovering that his fleet was crashed, you second wave will NOT hit any ships...

Same comment for the second example. If you can accept or refuse that the damage ships land into one of your colony, you are not taken by surprise. You want the ships, you take them, you don't want them, you refuse them...

Push networks : Yes, maybe it could happen. To be analized, definitely...
But are you going to earn a lot, if you get a little part a medium broken fleet ? (here I answer Demon457's comment too ^^)
The proposal is already mentionning some limitations (and I agree : limitations will be needed)...
Are you the only neighbour ? Do the damaged ships stay only on the same solar system ? or can they be dispatched further (more players receiving damaged ships = less benefit for each of them) ?

I don't think the goal of the proposal is to replace a normal way of playing, or to be able to get rich without playing, otherwise I would be against it. Its goal is to lower down the numbers of player that are leaving because they lost their entire fleet. And trying to add some fun and new action (unexpected events). With this proposal, even a non-fleeter has a (small) interest to get one of his neigbour destroyed.

Any comments ?

Azgaroth · Oct 27th 2011, 12:22pm

Well first of all, I never said I liked the random events. Because you´re proably right about that they will cause problems for miners and turtles logging in maybe once a day. That however can be solved very easily. The only thing that needs to be done is to have for example a tickbox where you can turn off the random events, should you want to. So i don´t see this as a big problem really.

It´s pretty hard to understand your english, so there might be some misunderstandings here. It´s in fact exaclty zero percent chance of the defender keeping 70% of his destroyed fleet. He will keep 49% of it, nothing more, nothing less. It doesn´t matter whether it´s possible to calculate where the fleet will go or not (which by the way it of course shouldn´t be for obvious reasons), it´s still an unexpected event for the player recieving the ships. Eitherway, what we call it is beside the point.

Yes you made an attack against a player that´s so inactive he lets himself get raided by rips, so what? And if you build a defense that big you only have yourself to blame if someone crashes into it. I bash defenses like that for fun. But let´s say that I´m semi on your side for a second. Would the defender in that case not like to have 49% of that fleet back if he had the choice? If not, then he never should´ve built it in the first place.

People that log in maybe once a day are probably the players who have the highest rate of quitting. But they will still get raided and quit if they can´t be bothered to fs and rs. If they have a fleet that they don´t fs, then yes, they would probably lose a little bit more in defense. But if you can´t be bothered to fs, then you shouldn´t have a fleet. I still think it´s ludicrous to assume that a player that has a fleet wouldn´t like to keep 49% of it if he gets crashed.

This might lead to more pushing, it´s kind of hard to assess though. I don´t think it´s gonna be a huge problem though

The auto-escape feature leading to more attacks is kind of obvious though, especially against turtles since they need to be grinded down before you can crash their fleet. Your point about less targets leading to more attacks is probably true early in a universe. However the auto-escape doesn´t exactly lead to less targets as far as I´m concerned. The real problem of players being attacked more in the test uni is most likely due to the fact that the noob protection was set to 10:1 even from the beginning, instead of the usual 5:1.

iguypouf · Oct 27th 2011, 12:34pm

NusaDua wrote:

I don't understand you first point (before your example), so I am not commenting it...

Quoted
He keeps 70% of his defense, and has no more ships.
In your suggestion, he keeps at least 49% of ships, but I think more, so he represents for me a 35M - DF equivalent, and YES, for this i make another attack.

You assume that the damaged fleet is back straight away, which is not the case in the proposal. There is a delay before the fleet comes back, and possibly an action needed from the defender to activate the return. Unless the defender makes a second mistake after discovering that his fleet was crashed, you second wave will NOT hit any ships...

I don't speak about "Waves", but "second attack". When a player represents a 70M - DF equivalent (like in my attack), he is interesting for me.

But with 35M also...

And if the 49% fleet does not come back immediately, its ok for "waves", but I guess its not possible to wait a reply of the defender to give the fleet back... Just imagine a player inactive, who gets active 2 weeks ago and... hop, he makes a jump in the military stats ? So each inactive player is a player able to "magic raise" a fleet at first connection ?

@Asgaroth :

Yes you made an attack against a player that´s so inactive he lets himself get raided by rips, so what? And if you build a defense that big you only have yourself to blame if someone crashes into it. I bash defenses like that for fun. But let´s say that I´m semi on your side for a second. Would the defender in that case not like to have 49% of that fleet back if he had the choice? If not, then he never should´ve built it in the first place.

OK, but so, the way to avoid a fast stop of a lot of players is not to give them back a fleet, but to LEARN THEM HOW TO PLAY. **

Another points, I know some fantastic fights made by some fleeters, fighting against a big one WITHOUT BENEFIT just to kill this enemy. The fighters also gives back 49% of their lost ships ?

@all : remember that I'm also against the fleet escape (stupid improvement, for me), but its not a reason to accept every suggestion without thinking about all consequences.

@all again : change your suggestion, so. Its is not "x % flies to a planet", but "x % will change owner". A "fly", in Ogame, have always a return... Or a crash.

** Or, for example, find system like
- the defender wins a technology level equals to 40% of his lost fleet, or buildings, or have a "ressource credit" impossible to get by another player, than the defender can uses how he wants...

Azgaroth · Oct 27th 2011, 1:54pm

So what if he´s "interesting"? If he doesn´t want to fleetsave it´s up to him... There´s currently a function in the new noob protection that let´s you turn it off, so to solve your little problem here, just add a tickbox that allows you to turn off this feature and your turtle buddies don´t get their fleet back. This feature however is not designed to help a turtle with a 10M point account. If he hasn´t learned how to play in the 3 years he has played, then too bad for him.

Of course it would be better to teach the noobs how to play, everyone understands that. However if they don´t want to learn by visiting the forum, reading guides etc., are you gonna force them to learn or what? At least this gives them a second chance to understand what they did wrong and not make the same mistake again.

I don´t understand the rest of your post, so there´s no point in me commenting on that

icecold · Oct 27th 2011, 2:11pm

I really like the basic idea!!! getting at least a bit of a crashed fleet back is very helpfull to start over again... i think that is the way, how you keep players.
but on the other hand side i agree, that there has to be quite a bit of work to be done with the balancing. just as an other example:

somebody attacks me, because i want to have a moon(i have 1667 light fighter). 833lf will come back to me...one of us got the debris field(enough ress for another 500lf) and with a bit of luck i also get the other 334lf back...
isnt that a bit cheap for a moon?!?

like i said:
the idea of not loosing all of the fleet is perfect!!! but the balancing has to change definitely! (but thats not my job...i am just a "normal" gamer...not even paying for the game. why would i put so much effort in the improvement of the game though?

)

Azgaroth · Oct 27th 2011, 2:28pm

Yes, the suggestion definitely needs some adjustments and that is gonna take alot of work. But the basic idea is very good i m o and I´m sure that there´s a way to avoid this being exploited.

I still don´t understand where you guys get this "with a little bit of luck, you´ll get it all back" idea. It doesn´t work like that. You get 49% back, always, it´s got nothing to do with luck and there´s no chance what so ever of getting any more than that.

icecold · Oct 27th 2011, 2:52pm

restlesz wrote:

The other ships are only defect and fly back with a delay to the owner and other planets near to the combat.

- 70% of those ships fly back to the owner. --> He is able to restart his account and a lost attack causes not the dead of the whole fleet (He gets ca. 50% back)
- 10% of those ships fly randomly to the next planets in the system. --> unexpected event for other players.
- 20% of those ships fly randomly to the next galaxie systems. --> unexpected event for other players.

To avoid "an one point account gets a RIP" add some rules based on the account points.
To avoid the next kill of those ships :
- Add a random delay for the return flight, NOT phalanxable
- Or let them return to an user selected hour on every day (e.g 4pm)

Numbers are only for example, of course.

Regards, Francolino

those other ships are "flying" randomly to other planets. there are differnt ways to fly. correct me if i got it wrong, but also transport, espionage, ... is flying. normally a fleet comes back after transport. that would create the chance in my example to get 100% back(not a big percentage, but at least its possible: 50%fleet return, 30%debris field and the ships returning from their flight where ever they went to...)

but that is just a little thing, we dont need to argue about that

i still love the basic idea!!!

Azgaroth · Oct 27th 2011, 3:09pm

It´s not because I want to argue with anyone, I just want everyone to understand exactly what the suggestion is

You have misunderstood what francolino means though (or else I have misunderstood it completely). What francolino means is that 10% of the ships will fly off to a random planet in the system and become that players ships, not return to your planet as it would in a mission. If that isn´t what he means by that, then this sentence makes no sense: "To avoid "an one point account gets a RIP" add some rules based on the account points." So none of those ships have any chance of actually returning to the player that lost them.

restlesz · Oct 27th 2011, 3:53pm

vaska00762 wrote:

The fleet being able to escape is a brilliant feature! But the protection system is just really annoying for people starting out!
As I said, giving 2-4 days of protection with no questions asked at the beginning WILL allow new players to get started out and join in fully at the end of the 2-4 days.

Well, Brilliant for those who doesn't know - or bother to fleetsave.
If you fleetsave - your fleet AND YOUR RESS - you won't be interesting - and therefor not get attacked. I played the testuni for a week or two, and I was attacked ONCE!!! A lot of players spied on me, when I didn't have any activity, but noone bother attack me - and no - I hate defence, so I had as little as possible , ie 2rl 2 ll and a small shield. But since I had my ress with me on fleetsave, when I was off --- noone bothered to attack me.
So if you rely on fleeing fleet and leave your ress at home ... Then you WILL get attacked, over and over and over again. So learn to fleetsave - and take you ress with you. That's the best noob protection there is.
With this suggestion, noobs have a chance to learn to fleetsave, without loosing their whole fleet - but with the fleeing system, the fleet flees, but their ress gets stolen all the time. That you have played in another uni, is no proof that you can play the game.

About the fleet flying randomly to other players:
Rips can't be found on expos, so they can't fly randomly to other players either. They will be lost. ( but if a player has rips - he SHOULD know how to fleetsave - and if he does, and have made a mistake - then it's 100% his own fault, that he looses the rips)
So what if an inactive player gets some fleet randomly? Another player can then attack the inactive and get the df. He might even get ninjaed, if a random fleet arrives before he hits the inactive.... Another fun event... and "forces" you to learn even more about Ogame - something called safty probing

The suggestion said that some part of the fleet flies randomly in system, and another part flies randomly to the next galaxy. To avoid push - if you're so concerned about that - the fleet could fly randomly in the galaxy, then there's no way to make an "organised" push...
About getting 100% of the rest (70%) of the fleet... No - there's no chance for you, that gets crashed, to get more back than 70% of 70% ~ 50%
simply because it goes randomly out to OTHER PLAYERS. That means NOT YOU.

The return of the fleet after an attack. The fleet comes home randomly, that means it can take 4 hours, it can take 10 hours or even 48 hours.
To make it a thing or a button the defender has to activate, is not a good idea. If the defender is inactive, the fleet will stay in space for ever (if he has DM on the acc) and i guess that will do something to the server - overload, or.....( not sure, though - since I don't knoe much about the system behind the game)
And another player won't get that chance to crash the rest of the fleet - the inactive player doesn't need the fleet...

There's no doubt in my mind, that with the fleeing fleet, there will be more attacks highly overpowered in the beginning - simply to take down the defence to get to the fleet. The noobs will never learn the basics of protecting themselves - ie fleet- and ress saving. And one day, the defence is small enough, so a player need less fleet to crash the fleet - and then it's gone.... and so is the noob.. if he hasn't quit a long ago, because he doesn't know have to take care of his ress.

This idea might need some more work, but actually not that much...

restlesz · Oct 27th 2011, 4:00pm

icecold wrote:

there are differnt ways to fly. correct me if i got it wrong, but also transport, espionage, ... is flying.

This might not have been explained good enough...
But there's no type of mission here. Just as you can get fleet in an expo, the fleet comes to you "in deploy", so the randomly flying fleet - STAYS at your
place.
By randomly flying, it means that tghe fleet flyes in deploy AND STAYs with a randomly selected - (selected by the system) - player.

NusaDua · Oct 27th 2011, 4:28pm

To make it a thing or a button the defender has to activate, is not a good idea. If the defender is inactive, the fleet will stay in space for ever (if he has DM on the acc) and i guess that will do something to the server - overload, or.....( not sure, though - since I don't knoe much about the system behind the game)
And another player won't get that chance to crash the rest of the fleet - the inactive player doesn't need the fleet...

I think you shouldn't be forced to welcome damaged ships, that is why I mentionned a "button to activate". Because if the defender or a neighbour is inactive, there is no point loading him with additionnal ships. This is one of the critics from iguypouf : being able to crash a fleet again and again, that is equal to make a big favor for the fleeters. I would suggest that if the button to welcome the damaged ship is not activated within 24h or 48h (a decent time for any active Ogame player), these ships are LOST for ever.
Moreover, you need to take into consideration that some farmers don't want to get extra battle ships that they will not use.

Icecold made a good point about the moonshot, by the way... If you let 1667 lf on your planet for it, and you get 49% back, it means : allowing a cheap moon system !
There is a still a need for ajustement in this proposal

restlesz · Oct 27th 2011, 5:01pm

NusaDua wrote:

Icecold made a good point about the moonshot, by the way... If you let 1667 lf on your planet for it, and you get 49% back, it means : allowing a cheap moon system !
There is a still a need for ajustement in this proposal

Well, cheap moon shots exists today.... In unis with deff to df - for example. And then you have ms acc.....

I really don't undersatnd why the ships ie ress should be lost for ever.
When the original fleet is reduced with ~50 % - and comes back after xx hours - then maybe a low ranked player now have enough fleet to crash the rest of fleet - which he didn't have in the first place. It's not always the higher ranked player that takes all the profit, you know. if there's - let's say 20 sc, 10 lc a few lf and some probes left... do you think that a player with 1m points bother to go for that... naaahhh don't think so, but the lower ranked player - well that's nice profit for him. And since the fleet/ress has been produced, I think it should stay in the game and not get lost ( in space) for ever.
That means, there IS a point loading ships to an inactive - it also benefits the lower ranked players.
So - a higher ranked player probably doesn't bother attacing over and over, and over..... again

"Moreover, you need to take into consideration that some farmers don't want to get extra battle ships that they will not use."

WOOT??? Huh?? Does there really exist players that don't want free ships??? That can't be possible... For what reason?? and what kind of ships is it, that a raider doesn't wants/use?

NusaDua · Oct 27th 2011, 6:16pm

Well, cheap moon shots exists today.... In unis with deff to df - for example. And then you have ms acc.....

Uni with def in the DF are not common, and moonshoot accounts are not extremely common either, if you compare them to the total amount of players.
The potential problem with reducing the cost of the moon is to have many of them in the early stage of the universe... That could lead to more damage, and more people quiting...

It's not always the higher ranked player that takes all the profit, you know. if there's - let's say 20 sc, 10 lc a few lf and some probes left... do you think that a player with 1m points bother to go for that... naaahhh don't think so, but the lower ranked player - well that's nice profit for him.

Most of the high ranked players (before the merchant, at least), are players who are farming A LOT the inactives... All the day long, actually... So it will benefit probably more to the them than to the newbies. Even if it's true that they can indeed find some more targets, if we follow your idea.
But this is not the issue.
As I said, the problem that will arise, is that all these abandonned ships will benefit to raiders only, and here you are changing the balance between raiders and farmers.

WOOT??? Huh?? Does there really exist players that don't want free ships??? That can't be possible... For what reason?? and what kind of ships is it, that a raider doesn't wants/use?

Hey, I said "farmers" ! Those players who connect once a day, and who have only transport ships. I know lots of them, but... What's wrong about giving a choice ?

I talked too much on this thread, I let other people doing it now

iguypouf · Oct 27th 2011, 6:25pm

iguypouf wrote:

@all again : change your suggestion, so. Its is not "x % flies to a planet", but "x % will change owner". A "fly", in Ogame, have always a return... Or a crash.

iguypouf wrote:

Flies existing ? Stationate, Attack, Transport. In 2/3 cases minimum (Stationate and Transport), the defender receives is fleet back. On attack flies, another chances to get is fleet back if fight is nul or won.

So, the defender has a good percentage of chances to keep 70% of his whole fleet, and not 70% of 70%. If my understanding is false, the suggestion is not clear. You speak just as if you had understood : the fleet "reaches" the fleet of a neighbour. If its your suggestion, don"t speak about "unexpected events".

icecold wrote:

those other ships are "flying" randomly to other planets. there are differnt ways to fly. correct me if i got it wrong, but also transport, espionage, ... is flying. normally a fleet comes back after transport. that would create the chance in my example to get 100% back(not a big percentage, but at least its possible: 50%fleet return, 30%debris field and the ships returning from their flight where ever they went to...)

This player says exactly the same thing than me.

The text of the suggestion does not mean that the ships are switching to another account, but "flying to planet for unexpected event". I understand this like "Attacking, Spying, Carrying or Deploying randomly to other planets". If the good understanding is "deploying and join the fleet of a random player", its not a "unexpected event".

And it was the reason why I understand than the player can keep 70% of his whole fleet, if the "unexpected event" is "carry", for example.

Azgaroth · Oct 27th 2011, 6:32pm

How is it not an unexpected event if the ships goes to a random player and then stays there to join that player´s fleet? That´s pretty much as unexpected as it gets for the player recieving the ships. I´m not gonna argue any further who is right about this, I´m just gonna tell Francolino to post an answer in the thread

btw Nusadua, that´s an exellent suggestion that there should be a time limit to recieve the damaged ships. However after accepting it there should also be a delay, otherwise you could use that to ninja people and they would have no chance to see it coming.

EDIT

I asked francolino now and I was right. The ships will go to a random player and stay there as his fleet. So can we please drop this discussion now and keep the constructive ideas coming.

restlesz · Oct 27th 2011, 7:09pm

NusaDua wrote:

What's wrong about giving a choice ?

Nothing wrong at all. If they don't want ships coming randomly to them, they can check out for "no thanx"

Since a lot of us doesn't have English as our main language, there might be some missunderstanding. It seems like flying to a random player, is not understandeble. If there's a person who has English as his main language, please translate my explanation into understadeble English.
What so ever - whether the fleet flies home or change owner - the fleet STILL FLIES to the new owner. so.... no... if this becomes a part of Ogame, a flight will not always have a return or a crash.

Azgaroth · Oct 27th 2011, 7:17pm

For the record, there´s nothing wrong with the way you were phrasing your sentence restlesz. Flying to a random player means exactly what you think it does, I have no idea why some people interpreted this as it being a regular mission. The ships are obviously still flying, I have hard time imagining them crawling towards another player

A much better suggestion to noob protection than the fleeing fleet

NusaDua wrote:

restlesz wrote:

vaska00762 wrote:

icecold wrote:

NusaDua wrote:

iguypouf wrote:

iguypouf wrote:

icecold wrote:

NusaDua wrote:

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