Discussion around the merchant rates

  • Discussion around the merchant rates

    EDIT - 15/07/2011

    I have updated the title of the topic, as the first idea (lower down the rates) is not a realistic possibility.

    The goal would be to find and discuss reasonable and acceptable alternatives to the current merchant rates.

    Acceptable means : without impacting the use of the merchant.

    In the best scenario : People would still use the merchant (a popular feature, good income for GF), but without destroying the core idea of fair competition, or being the best way to develop his account.     ;)


    _________________________________________ _________________________________________

    Hello,

    My suggestion is very simple. At the moment, the merchant rate is around 3 / 2 / 1.
    I would propose to lower it down at 2 / 1,5 / 1

    In the French universe, many players, and especially non-fleeters, are buying deuterium from "noobs", in order to sell it to the merchant. It has become a real, well-known, and efficient strategy.

    It creates two main problems : - it is difficult for fleeters to find deuterium for its "normal use"
    - it is possible to be highly ranked just by using the following trick : buy deut of another player against cristal (1,5/1), and exchange this new deuterium to the merchant against cristal (2/1).
    The more deut you buy, the more benefits you make.

    So I understand that the merchant represents a real income for the GF, but actually, the game is totally unbalanced.
    In the new universes, most of the "tops" are basing their strategy on commercial incomes : indeed, it works very well. But it is very unfair for the most involved and skilled players.

    My proposition would re-balance a little bit the game : 2 / 1.5 / 1.
    People will still be using "massively" the option : the cristal is rare, and the metal far too common.
    It will still be interesting to use it, but it won't lead to the current commercial distortion.

    We won't be in a situation where some non-fleeters noobs are making incredible benefits by buying huge amount of deut, beeing highly ranked, and creating unsatisfaction amongst the fleeters.
    In other words, we would just get rid of "the full mastercard strategy".

    It would be beneficial to the internal balance between players.
    Ogame used to be a strategy war-game supposed to reward the best players. It is not anymore, as you can see in the new universes.

    I would appreciate if someone from the GF could take this into account.
    We all understand that the Dark Mater is an income for the GF, but     please don't let the premium options kill the competition.

    Thank you     :P

    ND

    The post was edited 4 times, last by NusaDua ().

  • the merchant rate is not 3-2-1 (or around it). it's random. anywhere from 3-2-1 to 2-1-1. if someone wants a GOOD rate, they may have to pay for several trades. my guess is GF probably makes more money from the merchant than any other thing in ogame. you have the option of paying to use it too. the merchant is available to everyone. as you said, it's a great strategy to grow quickly, and it's a great strategy for gameforge to rake in some serious cash. NOBODY would trade with the merchant at a 2-1.5-1 rate. I can pretty much guarantee that. you don't need the merchant to get a 2-1 rate metal: deut and 1.5-1 crystal:deut isn't really worth spending the $$$ on. I used to use merchant, but stopped after the redesign and then the cost of the merchant got upped after that, but asking gameforge to change this is like asking a bank to stop charging you interest on your mortgage.

    just my opinion of course.

  • NusaDua wrote:

    My proposition would re-balance a little bit the game : 2 / 1.5 / 1.
    People will still be using "massively" the option : the cristal is rare, and the metal far too common.
    It will still be interesting to use it, but it won't lead to the current commercial distortion.
    I agree completely !
    For the moment, in fact, the rate is around 3/2/1 , at least in France.

    The game became too hard for fleeters needing deut for fighting every day !
    It's only during wars that miners used to use the merchant accept to exchange without benefit, just to help their team !
    It's abnormal and completely discouraging for our fleeters every day ...

    Le bonheur est souvent la seule chose qu'on puisse donner sans l'avoir,
    et c'est en le donnant qu'on l'acquiert ^ Voltaire.

  • Hello,

    Marlenus,
    I agree with your analysis when you say than lowering the merchant rates equals to ask a big favor from the GF. However, what you describe after doesn't correspond to what actually happen in the French universes. Some (most of the) high ranked non-fleeters are buying as much deuterium as they can with unbeatable rates, in order to sell it again to the merchant (2 crystal vs 1 deut).
    The normal rate to exchange cristal vs deut is close to 1/1 in France, it means cristal is very rare, that is why the merchant is so used...
    And this will not change with a 2/ 1,5 / 1.

    The facts are : it is the first time that a premium option has SUCH an influence on the score of the game.
    I ask the French people reading this (in case the situation is different elsewhere) : am I right or not ? (If not, I shut up :P)

    As most of the players, I pay attention to the score. Now, everyone realizes that some people are highly ranked (top 20, top 5, top 1)by using cleverly their dark matter. If these players can, in a way, buy their ranking, is it a positive thing for Ogame's future ?
    F    or me, it is a sufficient reason for not starting a new universe, as I know I will never be rewarded anymore for my skills or the energy I put to develop my empire in a "normal" way.
    Just to conclude, I am not saying "you should remove the option", but I was hoping at least to create a debate on the merchant, as it is THE option that changed the most the gameplay in the recent years on the French servers. (I have been playing actively Ogame for around 5 years now). What merchants bring at the moment with this 3 / 2 / 1 rate is a massive and visible change in what we knew until now : it benefits only to a few players and it destroys the internal commercial balance.

    That's more or less all I had to say, thanks     ^^

  • First, like marlenus said, the rates are random. They are not constant but you can always click until you have 3 / 2 / 1.

    NusaDua wrote:

    In the French universe, many players, and especially non-fleeters, are buying deuterium from "noobs", in order to sell it to the merchant. It has become a real, well-known, and efficient strategy.
    Everyone can follow that strategy, even you, so that is not a big problem.

    NusaDua wrote:

    It creates two main problems : - it is difficult for fleeters to find deuterium for its "normal use"
    - it is possible to be highly ranked just by using the following trick : buy deut of another player against cristal (1,5/1), and exchange this new deuterium to the merchant against cristal (2/1).
    The more deut you buy, the more benefits you make.
    Are you saying that no one wants to exchange deuterium to you ?
    Have you ever talked to one of those players who sell deuterium to the merchant ? I believe they wouldn't mind exchanging the deuterium to you at the 3/2/1 rate. :D
    If you can't really find deuterium you can exchange some at the merchant. :thumbsup:


    I believe the problems are those fleeters who don't want to exchange at the rate 3/2/1. You are probably one of these.

  • When you want merchant rates close to 3 / 2 / 1 you have to call the merchant ten times for any trade. The usual used merchant rate is something between 2.8 / 1.8 / 1 and 2.9 / 1.9 / 1.
    As Link said, if most of the game buy their deuterium with 3 / 2 / 1 NO one uses the merchant, because this trading rate is sure and the merchant is usually 10% below.

    Well, why it is so bad for fleeter to pay more for their deuterium ? It's only the view of fleeter to optimize their win in an easy way.

    First, any fleeter can build a lot of RIPs to earn the resources in a cheap way. And more RIPs decreases the biggest fleeter problem - turtle accounts.
    Then, any killed fleet is a lost fleet for this universe and usually after some kills a lost player. What's the effect here when the costs of fleeting would be increased ?

    In my eyes the merchant was one of the best feature for OGame ever to help this game.



    Regards, Francolino

  • When you want merchant rates close to 3 / 2 / 1 you have to call the merchant ten times for any trade. The usual used merchant rate is something between 2.8 / 1.8 / 1 and 2.9 / 1.9 / 1.
    As Link said, if most of the game buy their deuterium with 3 / 2 / 1 NO one uses the merchant, because this trading rate is sure and the merchant is usually 10% below.
    Well, why it is so bad for fleeter to pay more for their deuterium ? It's only the view of fleeter to optimize their win in an easy way.
    First, any fleeter can build a lot of RIPs to earn the resources in a cheap way. And more RIPs decreases the biggest fleeter problem - turtle accounts.
    Then, any killed fleet is a lost fleet for this universe and usually after some kills a lost player. What's the effect here when the costs of fleeting would be increased ?
    In my eyes the merchant was one of the best feature for OGame ever to help this game.
    Regards, Francolino
    Hello,
    I am not a big fleeter ( I was ;) ).
    I will try to be more clear on my main argument.

    You are talking about cost of fleeting, I am talking about commercial distorsion because of the non-fleeters buying deuterium in the unique goal to sell it against crystal : the more deut they buy, the more they sell to the merchant (at 2,8/1,8/1 let say), the quicker they grow their account. No need to sell the deut to fleeters, it's a waste of time my friend ! And it is much faster to develop a RIP fleet this way (buying deut) than to develop it as the normal fleeters do. Every single time the non-fleeter buys deut to another player, he makes benefits.
    It is SO simple. And everyone does it... What a great strategy war-game we have now...     :(

    I share you point of view to say that it would not be a good thing to reduce the cost of fleeting...
    I also think the merchant is a good feature, but at the moment it is too easy to take advantage from it.

    Very simply, it should not be possible to sell the deut to the computer at such high rates.
    Thanks,
    ND

  • in france player/player rates are 2/1.5/1

    so merchant raites at 2/1.5/1 is like you say no money for GF

    or the player/player rates go near 1.5/1.1/1

    its bad for little players who sell their deut for up

    if they stay in the top 1000 they not continue

    2.5/1.6/1 is better for all

    with that merchant user cant be really top

    ^^

  • i have a different opinion. the point is lots of people are stupid. if they understimate the value of their resources it is not a developer problem.
    if somebody sell deuterium at 1.4:1 and somebody buy it for 1.6:1 you can trade it and have a bonus for free.

    the merchant is an easy way to find somebody who buy deuterium for high prices. (you do not need a merchant to buy 3:2:1... you need one to buy 3:x:1 and one x:2:1 ... and this happen much more often in my expeerience)

    the point is... deuterium has no value at all. the value it has depend on ask and offer. if the universe noob people get informed their deuterium can be sold at high prices they maybe will start to sell it right. but they are so stupid they continue selling it cheap. so the fault his of noobs, not of developers.

    The first in my universe do this... trick... and he pays 1:1 vith cristal. i can give it at 1.5:1 ... can you imagine the noob of my universe whom sell deuterium? yes... to the wrong one :P i think a medium noob playa will get about... ehm... 2 years yet to get the idea he can have much more cristall from his deu... at least i hope so.


    for the GF point of wiew anyway this is really nice. happy birthday GF ^^

  • Francolino wrote:



    Well, why it is so bad for fleeter to pay more for their deuterium ? It's only the view of fleeter to optimize their win in an easy way.


    Well, why it is so bad for miner to sell deuterium cheaper :P ?

    3 : 2 : 1 is really much for fleeters nowadays where there is almost nothing to attack and get profits from.

    The problem is that there is no pressure on the market. If we have a shop in real life and shop gives You very high prices You just don't buy it.
    Shop owners see that sth is wrong and prices are too high so they lower it and client is happy to buy it and shop is happy to earn.

    But here we have miners who give You ratio 3 : 2 : 1. You don't buy it. Miners see that sth is wrong so they sell it to merchant.

    There is no pressure from clients because if they don't want to buy, miner will sell it to the merchant. He won't change prices like on a normal market.
    But if fleeter wants to buy deuterium from merchant he gets proportion 4 : 1 metal - deuterium. Sth is wrong in this way.
    Miners can earn from selling deuterium for high prices but fleeters can't buy deuterium cheaper.

  • A very good analysis ! I agree !

    Right now something is wrong with such rates in the merchant's store.

    A lot of fleeters are totaly discouraged ... and as you know, it's very bad for our game.

    Le bonheur est souvent la seule chose qu'on puisse donner sans l'avoir,
    et c'est en le donnant qu'on l'acquiert ^ Voltaire.

  • Thank you guys.

    In addition to what has been said by in last posts, I would like to highlight the fact that a thread was opened on the French Board on a very related topic (where is the deut ?). The discussion was opened on the 2nd of January (5 days ago and the board was offline in the two last days) : there are currently nearly 300 replies and it has been viewed almost 10.000 times. board.ogame.fr/board1474-ogame…m-qui-sont-les-coupables/

    An extremely successfull topic, no wonder why. The conclusions and complains are quite linked to our present discussion : merchant impact.

    I can't stress enough that there is currently a problem, especially in the new universes. Just as a reminder for the people of the international community, the French universes are full when releases (over 10k players), so an "unbalance feature" has necessarly a bigger impact on the game than in an half-empty universe.
    It could be a few "full merchant players" creating a distorsion that impacts thousands of normal users.

    This topic is also quite sensitive so let's try not to import here the "fight" between miners and fleeters.
    My point was not to ask an advantage for fleeters or to penalize miners.

    The goal is just to escalate the issue to the GF, so maybe they can reevaluate the merchant rates, and recreate the conditions of a fair competition, for the players who love playing this game.
    Maybe this is too ambitious but there is probably a way for the GF to do cleverly, it means without loosing too much € ;)

    Regards
    ND

  • Lowering the rate would be unfair to those who produce deuterium.
    The exchange rate should take into account the production rates of the mines. It is 3 / 2 / 1 in the beginning an in the late game it becomes higher for metal and lower for crystal. So at least the metal / deuterium rate should not decrease in the merchant.


    If the strategy of buying cheap and selling to the merchant is an issue then I think the right choice is to fix the allowed rate between players at 3 / 2 / 1 in the beginning and 4 / 1.5 / 1 in the late game. No one will ever use that strategy again.

    But, again, I suspect you are just complaining because you want cheap deuterium.

  • In my opinion the best way to justify the rate, is by looking at the whole universe.

    The server can each day summarize all "free" resources (not used for building, developing, ... yet) and use this ratio to give an average value to the merchant.

    Additional the merchant can have an ratio above an below of e.g. 5 %.

    For the start period of a universe (e.g. 1 month) the ratio is fixed.

    So the merchant will give the players the possibility to trade, and have a little benefit.
    But it can not so easy used to "generate" resources.
    Also it will adapt automatically to the available resources of the universe, and must not discussed and adapted several times :)

    The given values (5%, 1 month) are just examples, which can be adapted.
    Also the definition of "free" resources can be adapted to include all currently running building builds and developing.

  • Hello,
    I prefer to prevent, I am French and my English is really bad.

    Francolino wrote:

    Well, why it is so bad for fleeter to pay more for their deuterium ?

    Francolino wrote:

    And more RIPs decreases the biggest fleeter problem - turtle accounts.

    Hum... lol xD
    I know I start well but I can't hold me react at this remarks.
    If I understand you say fleeter have « turtle accounts » but they must pay more for their deuterium -.-

    Yes fleeter can build a lot of RIPs to earn the ressources, but in practice in the universe 43 on Ogame.fr I had 500 rips and 4 millions points in « conventional » (I don't know if you say that to describe the fleet less rips), and I could not find enough deuterium to move my fleet... and it's a small fleet. Yet my rips move all the time to get ressources...
    And a really important detail, to be ripper is different being fleeter...
    Suffice to say « Stop be fleeter and become miner! » It's the same... and where is the strategie war game if fleeter don't exist? <.<

    Francolino wrote:

    In my eyes the merchant was one of the best feature for OGame ever to help this game.
    Did you ever play Ogame before the merchant?
    The merchant was killed much of the fleeter..



    The players have to stop being stupid and start thinking more.
    It's impossible -.-' Players who use the merchant want just to have a good fake rank and don't think at the consequence of their acts...

  • I'm a fleeter and I don't have any issue with merchant. Regardless, this whole discussion is just academic.

    Gameforge will not make any change that will result in reduced income to their business. If there are recommendations that will generate MORE income, perhaps they would entertain them, but this whole discussion is really moot as far as hoping change may result from it. You've all been around the block with oGame and GameForge and therefore you all know that as a business, GF doesn't really care all that much about the players (some of their employees do, but executive management, the decision makers, do not). If a project manager approaches them and says, 'hey, we want to implement this change, but we expect it will result in 20% less usage of merchant, reducing our income oGame-wide by an average of 10%"..... they'd be tossed out on their ear. I can't even imagine someone at GF bringing an idea like this to the attention of the decision makers for fear of looking like they aren't looking out for the best interest of the company. One might argue the best interest is to do what their customers want, but that's the mentality of a company like CCP, not GameForge.

  • I agree completely with Horizons analysis but on the other hand I also agree with marlenus. There´s absolutely no way that GF will come to a decision that will decrease the usage of the merchant (which is what will happen with lower rates for the miners to sell deu). GF has proven time and time again that if there´s money to be made they couldn´t care less what happens to the game or what the players think.

  • Kaminokage wrote:

    Hello,
    I prefer to prevent, I am French and my English is really bad.
    Lol Kami, j'ai failli faire une attaque en voyant ton post xD
    Content que tu sois là, je ne serais pas le plus mauvais en anglais :D

    Francolino wrote:

    Well, why it is so bad for fleeter to pay more for their deuterium ?
    You can also say that : "Why is it bad for digger to buy a cheap deuterium ?" and the answer will be the same : Because all the players want to progress the quicker they can.

    Francolino wrote:

    And more RIPs decreases the biggest fleeter problem - turtle accounts.
    A Ripper and a fleeter have different way to play. Moreover, this isn't a solution because the fleet won't vanish : a fleeter who contruct RIP have a constantly need in deut to move his fleet and he will continue to play with it.

    Francolino wrote:

    In my eyes the merchant was one of the best feature for OGame ever to help this game.
    It's a joke ?! This feature is probably the worst of all features invented by GF. It is profitable for GF but it has unbalance the relationship between fleeters and diggers because these lasts can now play without fleeters and without to be annoyed by fleeters. By solding their deut production to merchant acount, digger kill fleeter and all activity in a universe.

    NusaDua quote my topic about the majour problem of deut in universe and lot of people think that is the merchant which is the source of this problem.
    See the results :

    Lack of Deut : Who is the culprit ? wrote:

    A total of 84 Votes have been submitted (vote open the 18th on january)

    63% The merchant (53)
    35% Astro (29)
    29% A few production of synthetiso (24)
    25% Too greed fleeters(21)
    25% Too desert universes (21)
    19% A problem of mentality (16)
    17% No deut in ruin (14)
    7% An error of diggers (6)


    A last question for Francolino : Have you ever play as a fleeter (a fleeter not a ripper) after the arrival of merchant in the universes?



    We cannot delete the merchant because GF won't reduce their benefits. This is a complexe problem with lot of condition and there is several solutions :
    1. A merchant rate like a fleeter rate
    2. A merchant rate between the fleeter rate and the actual merchant rate
    3. A various merchant rate (my favorite solution)


    1. A merchant rate like a fleeter rate :
    Display Spoiler
    A merchant with a rate of 1/1/1seems to be impossible but it's because we don't working on this solution.
    With this rate, all people want to use merchant for several reasons :
    _ fleeters to buy deut with a sell of metal. With a rate of 1/1/1, fleeters will have deut like they want for ever.
    But also, to buy cristal with metal and can use their ressources as they want.
    Moreover, fleeters will begin to use massively this feature.
    _ diggers to buy cristal with a sell of metal. The main problem for digger is to obtain cristal in large quantity. By buy it with metal with a rate of 1/1/1, they can do it.
    Once again, this rate will probably cause a massif use of merchant

    The unconvenient of this solution is that produce deuterium for digger will probably useless because the low rate.
    But with a production like this : 7.500k (4.500k / 2.000k / 1.000k ) per day , by selling deut and metal they have a max of 7.500k of cristal per day (with 3/2/1 they can only have 7.000k)
    The advantage is they can produce more and more metal without be annoyed.
    The higher the metal production, the larger quantity of cristal we can obtain.

    Finally, this solution is to transform a merchant into a changer.


    2. A merchant rate between the fleeter rate and the actual merchant rate :
    Display Spoiler
    This is the most popular solution in the fleeter group.
    Use a merchant rate with a lower rate is a good idea because fleeters and diggers can use it to buy and sell their deut without to be looser in the change.

    But the majour problem of this idea is to fixe the rate to satisfy the fleeters AND the diggers...

    A rate of 2,5/1,7/1 is too high for fleeter and a rate of 2/1,5/1 is too low for digger (and also too high for fleeters :D )
    So, there is a need to deliberate on the rate before to choose this solution.


    3. A various merchant rate (my favorite solution) :
    Display Spoiler
    A merchant with the various rate is a merchant which follow the law of the offer an the need.
    The more deuterium we sell to merchant, the lower this rate will be.
    This princip is valaible also for metal and cristal.
    The ressource the most sell to the merchant will be the ressource with the lowest rate and these the less sell to the merchant will be the ressources with the highest rate.
    The rate will be fixe between 1/1/1 and 3/2/1 for deutérium, between 2/1/1 and 2/2/1 for cristal (the rate 3/2/1 is between these rate) and between 3/2/1 and 1/1/1 for metal.

    A bot calculate the quantity of ressources exchange between player, the quantity of ressources give to merchant and the ratio between these quantities give a rate by day.
    (It can also use the quantity of ressources product by players)
    By exemple :
    _ In one hand, players sell 100M of deut per day to the merchant and exchange 50M of deut per day between them.
    So the ratio between merchant and players is 2.
    The rate of tomorrow will be divide by 2. If this rate was 3/2/1, it will be 2/1,5/1.
    If tomorrow, the ratio between merchant and player is also 2, then the next rate will be again divide by 2 and will be : 1,5/1,25/1
    But, if the ratio between merchant and player is 0,75, then the next rate will be divide by 0,75 and will be : 2,3/1,7/1
    Etc...
    _In the other hand, players sell 75M of cristal to the merchant and exchange 100M of cristal between them.
    So the ratio is 0,75.
    If the rate was 3/2/1, the next rate will be 1,5/1,5/1.

    If they are no sell of a ressource to the merchant or between the player, then the next rate will be respectivelly the best or the worst for the merchant.
    For metal : 1/1/1 (the best) or 3/2/1 (the worst)
    For cristal : 2/1/1 (the best) or 2/2/1 (the worst)
    For deut : 3/2/1 (the best) or 1/1/1 (the worst)

    It is a little complicated but with theses rates, all the players can use merchant to sell theirs ressources:
    Digger to sell their deut or metal to a decent rate of cristal and fleeter to change their metal to a cheap deut.
    Moreover, this solution is the best way to make popular the merchant in the Ogame community and more players want use it to progress faster.

    It will be the Bourse of Ogame :thumbsup:


    Sorry for the too long post ^^
    Même en anglais je ne sais pas faire court on dirait :D

    PS : asterix2, je vais développer quelques idées sur le board français concernant le marchand histoire de tater le terrain francophone (mon anglais est trop limité pour les développer de façon approfondie sur ce board)
    N'hésite pas à y venir faire un tour

  • In my uni, I am a fleeter with the #2 ranked fleet. It is now a dead uni, but before it was dead, I had a TON of miners that traded me deut. I did lose some to merchant, but I had many more that I did not lose to merchant. Some miners will pay for merchant, but in my experience most do not want to part with their money. I had more deut than I knew what do to with, so even I as a fleeter resorted to using the merchant at times to trade in the deut I bought at lower rates for higher to the merchant. I never had problems with deut until the uni died. Now it's next to impossible to trade for deut, but that has very little to do with the merchant and everything to do with the fact that last month, only 88 players had a score change. Of those 88, only 40 have a score above 300,000 points. Of those 40, 15 are in my alliance. That leaves 25 people outside of my alliance to trade with. Many of those won't trade to me because I'm 'an enemy'. Many others are saving up for Astro 17. And there is one other fleeter in the uni and he pays better rates than I do. Basically the only people I get deut from now are in my own alliance. As a side note, it doesn't matter much, there are only 5 fleets remaining with scores >20,000 that I can hunt.

    Hurry up merge :).