Wreck field- discussion thread

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    • No sorry, but you don't get the point. Your point is: By using wreckfields you can now also push buildings.
      But that is not correct. Because you can only get 100% of the fleet's building cost(except for deuterium) if you do the wreckfieldthing infinitely more.
      The reason for that is actual mathematics :D The mathematics behind the wreckfields is the Geometric Series. If you want I could try to explain it more but it's a little bit difficult for me who is no mothertongue -.- And just in case it is the same for every universe no matter if it's 30/50/70 % df.
      So in the end you are now theoretically able to get 100% out of your fleet instead of 75% as before(scrap merchant). That is if there are no restrictions about the wreckfields. But there will be but we don't know them, yet. BUT you can never get more fleet out of the wreckfields by using your building points than you had before. So in your method all you would do is use all your resources up to build fleet while destroying your buildings and in the end just pushing the amount of resources you just used to build up fleet. You could have pushed these resources already without destroying your buildings.

    • Sorry, my answer will have a little delay. I was dumb enough to put a wikipedia link into it and now it has to be checked first -.- I'm an idiot to have forgotten this :dash: :dash: :dash:

      So the gist of it was:
      You can't get more than 100% out of your fleet by using the wreckfields infinitely more. So what you would be doing is like this:
      Spending all your resources into fleet, then destroying your fleet. Then getting back 100% of the cost of your fleet by using the wreckfields infinitely more and sacrificing buildings that amount to double the cost of your fleet. So in the end you have the same amount of fleet but less buildings. So it is not working.
      Maybe the main point was, that you can't get more than 100% out of your fleet. The reason for that is actually the geometric series(here was the link -.-).

      But you can also try this out for yourselves:
      Let's stick to your universe with 30% into df. You have a fleet with the value of 100%.
      Then you crash the fleet and use the wreckfields. Now you have 30% as df and 70% as fleet.
      Then you crash the 70% fleet and use wreckfields. Now you have your 30% and additionaly 0,3*70% as df, which is 51%. Your fleet is now 0,7*70%, which is 49%. You see what is happening? And like this you can go on forever but the sum of your df and your recycled fleet will always be 100%.

      Now I have written more than before...well mods please don't hate me for this :D

    • You still don't get the point,read carefully,with this option I can DECONSTRUCT BUILDINGS,THAT ARE ALREADY BUILD, TO GET RESOURCES out off it and with those resources i can rebuild the lost fleet.You have a point but you've forgot abouf building fleet with daily production.Basically i can push myself with building resources.You couldn't do that before.Because when you deconstruct building,resources would have been lost.Now i buy a miner acc build some fleet,crash it and deconstruct some building and rebuild fleet,crash it,deconstruct,rebuild,sometimes build fleet with daily.production,crash,deconstruct,rebuild etc.Of course you can't go infinite with that.but you can go enough to deconstruct a good acc.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Jake Doyle ().

    • Jake Doyle wrote:

      Basically i can push myself with building resources.

      I think the misunderstanding is caused by the term "push myself". Maybe you should use the term "push another account" instead.

      Without DM:
      1. Pushing account: "forgets" to FS 5 % of his fleet
      2. Pushed account: nukes ships
      3. Pushed account: collects 30 % DF
      4. Pushing account: repairs 70 % of ships with resources from sacrificed buildings
      5. Goto step 1.

      or:

      With DM:
      1. Pushing account: "asks" pushed account to nuke 5 % of his fleet
      2. Pushed account: nukes ships
      3. Pushing account: collects 30 % DF (for V4 pushing)
      4. Pushing account: repairs 70 % of ships with resources from sacrificed buildings
      5. Pushing account: sells the repaired ships for 75 % resources at the scrap merchant
      6. Pushing account: converts all resources (those from DF included) 3:2:1 to deut
      7. Pushing account: trades all deut 2:1:1 with pushed account for crys
      8. Pushing account: converts crys 3:2:1 for deut
      9. Both accounts: repeat V4 pushing cycles (step 6 + 7) until all resources from the 5 % fleet are gone
      10. Goto step 1.

      So you can then push another account with more than 75 % resources from your own ships. A lot of users thought that V4 was bad enough to spoil the game balance completly. This will make it worse. A lot.

      But deconstruction saving is an abuse of gane mechanics...

      JoKy wrote:

      I also remember several ideas over the years, where user requested a change on that, at least also to get resources out, what they know from other games.

      There must be thousands of ideas from other games which are not compatible with OGame mechanics.
      Deconstruction costs resources: no new pushing opportunities
      Deconstruction gives resources: new pushing opportunities

      Couldn't you find another way to give users some of their lost fleets back?

      kfg

    • I was using myself as an example as how would i do that.Now you can only get pushed by a pure miner acc with his daily production.After this update you can get 50% or more resources of the points that are spent on buildings.Just realize if you got a pure miner acc with 100m points in buildings,that is more than 50m points or 50m resources push.This will get ugly if it is going to be implemented.

    • So, to push with miner acount :
      Build a fleet
      Crash it to get 30% of the fleet.
      Destroy a building
      get 70% of the fleet back

      do it many time => you push less than 100% of fleet build.

      Why the hell not just let the pushed account raids the ressources ????
      Much more efficient, much more quick and only 1 forbiden action instead of many ?



      kfg wrote:

      Couldn't you find another way to give users some of their lost fleets back?

      Do not hesitate to give better way ;)


      ** OgameTech **

    • vulca wrote:

      Why the hell not just let the pushed account raids the ressources ????
      There will surely be a catch like,you can't use the resources from the buildings for anything else only to rebuild fleet from the wrecks,the rest of the resources just disappears.But then again if there is not going to be a catch,it would be even easier to push yourself,and even more wrong,and thus must not be implemented.

    • vulca wrote:

      kfg wrote:

      Couldn't you find another way to give users some of their lost fleets back?

      Do not hesitate to give better way ;)

      As if the GF would abandon their shiny new wreck fields, spacedocks or energy cells. Or the resource-free deconstruction, urgently needed for the building of energy cells, which themselves are desperately needed for ship repairs and for nothing else. I suspect the announced update for the spacedocks will enable the energy cells to generate resources again or let you build new ships.

      So it's pretty useless to post any brilliant ideas, since the most useful one was never implemented: teach noobs how to save correctly.

      kfg

    • There is one reason this feature was announced before it is implemented . This reason is to have feedback from players in the development phase.

      We are happy to receive any comments, being skeptic is not bad , provided you ask the questions and you add your comments. We value them a lot. This is in fact the main objective of Origin .


      If you don't see any comments directly from Game development team that doesn't mean they don't read your posts and they don't take into consideration your suggestions.

    • Valent wrote:

      There is one reason this feature was announced before it is implemented . This reason is to have feedback from players in the development phase.

      We are happy to receive any comments, being skeptic is not bad , provided you ask the questions and you add your comments. We value them a lot. This is in fact the main objective of Origin .


      If you don't see any comments directly from Game development team that doesn't mean they don't read your posts and they don't take into consideration your suggestions.

      And the following comment was intended to encourage further discussions, feedback and ideas?

      JoKy wrote:

      Live with the fact that it is changed and change your tactic :)

      Sounds pretty final to me. Discussions neither wanted nor needed. Nevertheless, I encouraged a user in the .de board to publish his idea about the topic. I hope it will be available soon.

      Another idea could be:
      The resouces needed for repairing can be obtained by scavenging other wrecks and not buildings. Makes more sense anyway.
      The bigger the losses, the smaller the recoverable portion of ships. Maybe similar to the formula for honor points in CRs.
      Wreck fields lose wrecks permanently, bigger fields faster than smaller ones. Should be dependend on actual size, not starting size. So if a field gets smaller, the deterioration rate will slow down, too.

      kfg

    • Very good the idea about using honor points , I like it.



      The bigger the losses, the smaller the recoverable portion of ships. Maybe similar to the formula for honor points in CRs.
      Wreck fields lose wrecks permanently, bigger fields faster than smaller ones. Should be dependend on actual size, not starting size. So if a field gets smaller, the deterioration rate will slow down, too.
      I don't understand, can you explain a bit ?

    • kfg wrote:

      Jake Doyle wrote:

      Basically i can push myself with building resources.

      I think the misunderstanding is caused by the term "push myself". Maybe you should use the term "push another account" instead.

      Without DM:
      1. Pushing account: "forgets" to FS 5 % of his fleet
      2. Pushed account: nukes ships
      3. Pushed account: collects 30 % DF
      4. Pushing account: repairs 70 % of ships with resources from sacrificed buildings
      5. Goto step 1.

      or:

      With DM:
      1. Pushing account: "asks" pushed account to nuke 5 % of his fleet
      2. Pushed account: nukes ships
      3. Pushing account: collects 30 % DF (for V4 pushing)
      4. Pushing account: repairs 70 % of ships with resources from sacrificed buildings
      5. Pushing account: sells the repaired ships for 75 % resources at the scrap merchant
      6. Pushing account: converts all resources (those from DF included) 3:2:1 to deut
      7. Pushing account: trades all deut 2:1:1 with pushed account for crys
      8. Pushing account: converts crys 3:2:1 for deut
      9. Both accounts: repeat V4 pushing cycles (step 6 + 7) until all resources from the 5 % fleet are gone
      10. Goto step 1.

      So you can then push another account with more than 75 % resources from your own ships. A lot of users thought that V4 was bad enough to spoil the game balance completly. This will make it worse. A lot.

      But deconstruction saving is an abuse of gane mechanics...

      JoKy wrote:

      I also remember several ideas over the years, where user requested a change on that, at least also to get resources out, what they know from other games.

      There must be thousands of ideas from other games which are not compatible with OGame mechanics.
      Deconstruction costs resources: no new pushing opportunities
      Deconstruction gives resources: new pushing opportunities

      Couldn't you find another way to give users some of their lost fleets back?

      kfg



      When a new feature is designed, you should not think about cheater stuff. You have to think about if that feature is useful or not.

      For cheating there is a team who will check if players use the feature legally or not, and they will have tools to check it :)

      And... Your 2nd option to cheat, is also posible now, scrap all fleet and defenses and then go to steps 6 and 7. Does not mean that it can be checked ^^

    • in my opinion it doesnt matter if this feature would make pushing easier
      if you want to prevent pushing you have to have a discouraging punishments in place and not the soft ban times we have now

      in general im frightened that the realisation of this idea will be just too complicated.
      why do you need a building and cells?
      why do you force players to rebuild ships with these ressources?

      its hard to discuss this feature without numbers. are you out of dices and couldnt determine the values? :E

    • Danimanza wrote:

      When a new feature is designed, you should not think about cheater stuff. You have to think about if that feature is useful or not.
      So with this feature you are helping players to stay after they are hit,but at the same time you are driving more players away as the cheaters will have new ways to cheat.Doesn't seem useful to me.

      Danimanza wrote:

      For cheating there is a team who will check if players use the feature legally or not, and they will have tools to check it
      Hahaha and hahaha.Mate sorry to disappoint you but the GO can't do jack sh*t about pushers if it's done properly,and most of times it is.




      Better to scrap this feature in a bin and make some tool(s) to help GOs,and to do some pop ups in game.Something like they have in Football Manager,to explain how to play.Think that is more useful than the new update.On the other hand,if this will be implemented,my 70M point miner acc will defintely get a better selling price(joke).


      btw. in 6 months after this will be implemented, i can bet my boys in my pants(you know what i mean) that this update will get some DM implementation....

    • Danimanza wrote:

      When a new feature is designed, you should not think about cheater stuff. You have to think about if that feature is useful or not.

      For cheating there is a team who will check if players use the feature legally or not, and they will have tools to check it :)

      And... Your 2nd option to cheat, is also posible now, scrap all fleet and defenses and then go to steps 6 and 7. Does not mean that it can be checked ^^

      That made me laugh. A very, very bitter laugh. What did the product manager of OGame (then CoMa in .de) state as users thought about V4 pushing?

      WeTeHa wrote:

      - Wir wissen um die Möglichkeiten des (Schrott-)Händlers.
      - Wir wollen und werden diese Möglichkeiten nicht einschränken.
      - Wir wollen und werden auch die Masse der Spieler nicht weiter einschränken.
      - Es ist moralisch vielleicht nicht ganz weit oben, verstößt aber nicht gegen unsere Regeln - auch nicht gegen Pushing.


      • We know about the possibilities of the scrap dealer.
      • We don't want to limit and won't limit these possibilities .
      • We don't want to limit and won't limit the mass of players.
      • It may be not be on an ethically high level, but it doesn't offend our rules - including pushing.

      So the GF makes the rules and the team has to abide by them. So nobody will be prosecuted, only because the GF makes more resources available for V4 pushing. So yes, a lot of players are concerned about pushing, since the GF is not. Check it yourself.

      The idea, that players losing their fleet get a compensation, to encourage them to stay in the game, is a good one. My critique is about the way this goal shall be accomplished: to make available indestructible points for pushing. I can easily extend my 2nd push model by adding some steps:

      1. Build some ships from leftover mine production (or from leftover resources)
      2. Nuke them
      3. Repair wrecks using more indestructible points
      4. V4 cycling
      5. Repeat until all buildings on all planets have been recycled
      This will happen. Many times. And no team in any community will be able to do anything about it.

      With my idea, at least only destructible points are available. And there are more than enough floating in space after a battle...

      About usefulness of new features: that ion technology reduces deconstruction costs is a good idea at first sight. But it backfires later, when your have to save a lot of resources for high level mines (40+), since you can't save as much in deconstruction and have to build more ships. The costs for these ships will get much higher as those you saved early on by tearing down your solar plants. So, is it useful? For those who don't intend to stay long in the game or don't know about the consequences, yes. For the others: no. Wreck fields are meant to keep people in the game. But when they really stay longer, they have to compensate more than necessary for the intended design of this feature. So it's the carrot and the stick. And there is no need to implement the stick together with the carrot.

      Valent, I'll come back to your question later. There is a thread open now in .de about alternatives ways to provide the resources for ship repairs.

      kfg

    • kfg wrote:

      1. Build some ships from leftover mine production (or from leftover resources)
      2. Nuke them
      3. Repair wrecks using more indestructible points
      4. V4 cycling
      5. Repeat until all buildings on all planets have been recycled
      Well, I am still of the opionion that this method doesn't work for miners. Because by this in the end you get the same amount of resources out than what you put in to build the ships(at least the met and kris) and on top of that spend double the worth of the built fleet in buildings, without getting additional resources. So the buildings are not converted to resources.

      So better just directly push the resources like with the trading thing or by 'accidentially' let it be raided. So with the wreckfields a fleeter acc may be able to push up to 100% the worth of his fleet(at the loss of the deut, so for fleets with a high share of deut the scrap merchant may still be better), but a miner acc still is not good for pushing. And I think, the wreckfield method is a lot more risky because one really breaks the rules in contrast to v4 push.

    • kraja wrote:

      kfg wrote:

      1. Build some ships from leftover mine production (or from leftover resources)
      2. Nuke them
      3. Repair wrecks using more indestructible points
      4. V4 cycling
      5. Repeat until all buildings on all planets have been recycled
      Well, I am still of the opionion that this method doesn't work for miners. Because by this in the end you get the same amount of resources out than what you put in to build the ships(at least the met and kris) and on top of that spend double the worth of the built fleet in buildings, without getting additional resources. So the buildings are not converted to resources.

      So better just directly push the resources like with the trading thing or by 'accidentially' let it be raided. So with the wreckfields a fleeter acc may be able to push up to 100% the worth of his fleet(at the loss of the deut, so for fleets with a high share of deut the scrap merchant may still be better), but a miner acc still is not good for pushing. And I think, the wreckfield method is a lot more risky because one really breaks the rules in contrast to v4 push.
      What if you get a miner acc with 100m points in buildings,on x4 speed...lets say your daily production is 150k points.Would you push yourself with 150k point per day or 50% of metal mine lvl 42 and that is almost 750m metal and 187m of crystal,or 937k points and that is only one mine....hard question?The funny part is you can also build additional fleet with daily production,so you'll always have enough fleet to run this all the time,probably you could use the merchant also....And I woulnd't be suprised if GF decides to implement Dm into this feature lets say to half/finish build time...that would be hilarious :thumbsup:

    • The only way to get ressources from building is to lose ships with higher value than the building.
      Then the way you want to push DOESN'T works.

      How is it possible to think you can make profits with building a fleet to destroye it, to destroye a building to get back a fleet with less value than what you lost (DF included)
      Better to push ress directly, you will get more ressources, it's faster, easier and you don't destroye the account/reduce production for NOTHING


      ** OgameTech **

    • vulca wrote:

      The only way to get ressources from building is to lose ships with higher value than the building.
      Then the way you want to push DOESN'T works.

      How is it possible to think you can make profits with building a fleet to destroye it, to destroye a building to get back a fleet with less value than what you lost (DF included)

      step 1: player B - Build fleet(probably LF,HF,cargos,battleship...somethings that doesn't use deut for building)
      step 2: player A - crash fleet,collect 30%
      step 3: Player B - sacrifice bulding,get res
      step 4: Player B - use res to rebuild remaining 70%(wrecks)
      step 5: Player B - use daily production to build remaining 30% fleet lost in combat
      go to step 2



      And also you can use a merchant,probably.

      vulca wrote:

      Better to push ress directly, you will get more ressources, it's faster, easier and you don't destroye the account/reduce production for NOTHING

      Because it's better to push yourself for x months then to push yourself in 2-3 months with the same amount of res.Pushers don't push themself long,the longer it takes the higher the risk is...so they would probably deconstruct a whole acc just to push themselves faster.

    • step 1: player B - Build fleet(probably LF,HF,cargos,battleship...somethings that doesn't use deut for building)
      step 2: player A - crash fleet,collect 30%
      step 3: Player B - sacrifice bulding,get res
      step 4: Player B - use res to rebuild remaining 70%(wrecks)
      step 5: Player B - use daily production to build remaining 30% fleet lost in combat
      go to step 2


      1) Let's say you have 1G ress
      2) => Collect 300M ress.
      3) lose a building
      4) get 700M ress (in fact, you can't get more than 550M ...)
      So 550M ...

      You had 1G ress. 300M are on the other account. 550M on yours.
      => 150M Ressource + 1 Mine are lost.

      Go step 1. Lose again 150M ress and another mine to transfert another time only 30%.


      Because it's better to push yourself for x months then to push yourself in 2-3 months with the same amount of res.Pushers don't push themself long,the longer it takes the higher the risk is...so they would probably deconstruct a whole acc just to push themselves faster.

      That's another reason your method won't be used ... Needs many iterration, need many time, and many fordiden actions


      ** OgameTech **